The BBB thread

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by dossa5, May 27, 2016.


    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    That too, KL.
    Thank you for your assistance in the investigation of the secret world of advanced skiing.
    I am looking for a proper description of the mysterious "pendulum effect" in ski turns.
    Do you have any insight about this?

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Why do instructors insist that twisting is dangerous and counterproductive?
    In some circumstances it is obviously so, as my neighbour discovered when tipping landfill..

    KL. Dedicated Member

    I have never heard of this term before but my imagination is saying "If controlled, it will produce a rhythmical response" and "if not controlled, it will take control of you and produce a non-rhythmical response"...

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Googleman here (how to use up a whole evening) :(
    Surprisingly, it seems to come from David McPhail (Skimoves), who seems to have patented the bones of the foot, so extensive and labourious are his investigations of feet and boots as the holy grail.
    I have previously looked there in vain for Bel rotations because he spoke of revealing "Ligeti's Secret".
    He went on about "rotating the leg", mainly.
    So I have read every dam word that he wrote.
    Only two paragraphs have I dredged out, he obviously did not want to mention the elephant in the room.

    1. " In summary, the best racers use the inside leg for pelvic stability and torque control. This becomes readily apparent when the transition phase begins. The prelude to extension is a release of pelvic torque control. Extension of the inside leg does not commence until significant unwinding of pelvic torque has occurred similar to that of a spring uncoiling."

    2. "Pendulum Effect Initiation – As the racer begins to transfer the load to the inside ski, the action releases the load on the outside ski. This initiates load induced rotation of the inside ski into the new turn. The inside (uphill) edge of the inside ski acts as a pivot for the rotation. The column of the skier rotates about the pivot like an inverted (upside down) pendulum imparting rotational momentum that will take the ski and skier past ski flat and into the new turn. The pendulum effect begins at the transition phase and ends when the transition phase for the next turn begins."

    Not a bad description. What he missed is that it is the stopping of the rotation of the "column of the skier" which loaded the outside ski in the first place.

    KL. Dedicated Member

    Sounds like Bump style (inside pole plant style) ... inside initiates, outside follows (hopefully). The inside initiation stops/transfers the rotation (hopefully, although only if the outside follows in a controlled manner, ie Pendulum Effect stops and begins again for the new turn).

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Yes! That then makes one more rotation action for Bob Barnes to add to his "5 rotation mechanisms"!
    Wish Skichanger was around. She would appreciate that mogul and surf stuff are sort of related. :)
    And she might offer some suggestions for the Bel Instructor Uniform, important to make a statement.

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Had a good time today using ArcGIS Earth to wander the backcountry routes, remembering places where I got lost or benighted or got blown off the ridge. Nicer interface than Google Earth, maybe,
    but using the same data.
    NBN makes it go.
    Looked at the Real Feather too, of course.

    Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Team Bears could do one of their huge camp fires so u can stand on Nth Peak and get your bearings so to speak..but not for a bit till fire conditions moderate.... we wish Westons had a red roof too cos we always have trouble picking it from Stonetops Ridgeline...stay cool ...we hope conditions moderate shortly in NE Vic as we soon will come under extreme fire conditions...the no of fallen trees along Longspur I saw the other day.heavy fuel that will go nuclear should any lightening storms develop..trouble with high intensity fires is the fuel left in years to follow...:cheers:

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Would need X Ray eyes to view the Real Feather from North Peak through the granite bulge.
    Halfway up East Ridge route just to SEE the summer snow, now that is the ultimate futility.
    Keep safe, Bears! Spargo was once lucky to survive, even with his dishing aquaduct redirected through his hut.
    Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    I have an idea...Bears fix some solar lights to roof of Weston's then we attempt location from Feathertop obviously on a clear evening....:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    That does sound like fun.
    To view Real Feather from Weston's looks like one must just climb up 50 feet to the North West. :)
    I meant Craig's...
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Virtual skiing is now so realistic that the Anticipation Machine will need a big screen to get viral.
    Put in too hard basket for now.
    Has anybody here come to Bel turning via snowboarding? This is the fun way for shor.
    Trouble is that the local snowboard technique is usually very basic.
    Shoulder snowboard turns are taught in all French resorts, so Bel comes very naturally.

    Skoard Style: (from Wikipedia)

    " Skoarding is a recently developed[when?] extreme sport composed of the two alpine sports, skiing and snowboarding. Skoarding has newly been defined as a specific sport or pastime the main factor being that a proficient snowboarder taking up the pastime of skiing and skiing in the specific style of a snowboarder.
    Skoarding is not a word used to describe two sports. It is an integration of two alpine disciplines skiing and snowboarding.
    Skoarding was first developed/discovered in 2011 in the French alpine ski resort of Peisey Nancroix close to Les Arcs. Whilst switching their snowboards for fats skis Simon Wilkinson and Leon Baker discovered that after many years snowboarding that placing two skis on in the usual fashion but still "riding" in the same style that they have always been accustomed to should in fact be called something completely new.
    Although laughed at by friends the idea soon caught on and many new characteristics became quickly apparent. Firstly the choice of route on "the hill" whilst traditional skiers choose a predictive smooth pattern snowboarders are renowned for their completely unpredictable riding pattern and this is one of the most prolific Skoarder traits.
    Other Skoarding traits include "hanging" with groups of snowboarders, one skier "hanging" with a group of snowboarders will quite quickly find him/herself becoming a Skoarder without realising it. Becoming a Skoarder can happen is several different ways, this can happen completely by accident by "hanging" or by default with a snowboarder trying skiing and just getting stuck in but following the same style he/she is accustomed to.
    Currently Skoarding is not largely recognised as a designated alternative to skiing, but there are community groups forming and growing in numbers as people are realising that this is not just a fad.
    It is very simple to ascertain whether someone is skiing or skoarding. Anybody who has been taught to ski from scratch will be aware that all the motion of the turns is done by the legs and lower body. A snowboarder trying to ski, and hence skoard, will initiate all ski turns using a rotation of their upper body. Whilst this is certainly not the most efficient or technically beautiful approach, it certainly does work and is very familiar movement for a proficient snowboarder""
    Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture Season Pass Gold

    No Bel Turn is complete without thrust.


    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    No uphill travel seems possible. Maybe the "significant unwinding of pelvic torque" takes place while he is attempting to remove the battery pack after it catches fire.
    [​IMG] .
    Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Bears certainly over lugging boards up mountainous we cannot even move our shoulders let alone initiate any amount of rotation. ..definitely no boarding for Team Bears for a few months..if the Team see any H4 50x200x2,400mm. Boards they may have a psychotic episode...but they do like that term skording...
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Zen and The Art Of High AltitudeTabling.
    Dick Smith might be conned into a drop from a chopper, but that would take all the fun out of the process?
    BBB would make them out of balsa wood, with a "use with extreme care" sign.
    Gotta rehabilitate those shoulders.

    French style
    "The basics of making a turn – turn shoulders, which turns hips, which turns ankles and feet, which turns snowboard"
    Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Good to hear from of forum has gone to sleep it seems...
    Yeah I thought of a helicopter drop so many times as I struggled up the hill on this apparent senseless project.It could have lowered constructed table straight down...How those Sherpas carry those immense loads in Himalayas is beyond a joke..but I feel more grounded and humble after this project.On reaching beyond that point of exhaustion u get an amazing mental peace and perspective on things in general.
    Well least I did not have heart attack but at times I just stood deep breathing for 5mins at a time while time seamed to stop.u have a pleasant and rewarding day :thumbs:.
    Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture Season Pass Gold

    Because he didn't Bell turn.

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Why don't more skiers turn like Malcolm Milne did, he was showing the way.?
    He did not have any snowboarders to copy.
    Maybe that could be the answer, some skiers would hate to look like a s###boarder. o_Oo_Oo_O

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold


    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    I often come across early Bel instructors and wonder why their insights did not revolutionize ski technique.
    Sometimes they died before their time, often they complicated their style instead of simplifying it.
    It usually fizzled out because nobody bought their books.
    Typical is Jack Heggie (died 2002) "Skiing With The Whole Body"
    An article he wrote

    ":Most skiers have had the experience of seeing a good ski racer blasting down an intermediate slope on his way to the race course. While weekend skiers are cautiously wending their way from side to side down the trail, the racer flies almost straight down the hills, as if suspended from an overhead wire, seemingly impervious to the problems that beset ordinary skiers. You can't mistake a racer on the slopes. His grace, ease, and economy of movement immediately set him apart from the recreational skier.

    Although anyone who has been skiing for a while can spot a racer or expert level skier on the slopes, not many realize that it's easy to spot a really good skier standing still, or just coasting along on a catwalk, if you know what to look for.

    At many ski areas, there are catwalks, access trails, and flat spots at the top of the mountain, with only a one or two degree slope, and the maximum speed attainable is just a few miles an hour. Here, the novice can go as fast as the expert . A push of the poles to get going, and then you just stand still and wait to get to the hill.

    If you can't find a place like this, especially if it leads to a more difficult trail, and watch for a while, you may discover a curious thing: many of the expert level skiers can be picked out of the crowd by the posture only, as they coast along.

    Good posture is not easy to describe in words, but most people will find that they can easily recognize good and bad skiing stances. A good skier "sits back" on his skis, and his upper body is straight and vertical. This sounds simple enough, but very few skiers do it. Why is this?

    In order an answer this question, we need to know about the human body's response to falling. We all have an innate or unlearned response to falling that is present at birth. An infant's response to falling consists of contracting all the flexor muscles of the body. Most of the flexors are at the front of the body, with the exception of the thighs. if you lie on the floor and bring your elbows to your ribs and your fists onto your breast, and then draw your knees up towards your chest and your feet towards your buttocks, and finally lower your head to your chest, you will have activated all of your flexor muscles.

    When we first begin to ski, we spend a lot of time feeling as if we are going to fall, and in fact we usually do fall a lot. Therefore, the falling reflex is activated again and again, many times a day, until it becomes a habit of motion associated with skiing. Skiers without good body awareness unconsciously integrate this faulty pattern of motion into all their skiing techniques. Furthermore, they usually begin to feel that their bodies are standing erect even when they are not.

    Keeping the torso straight and vertical is important for a number of reasons. For one thing, in this position the resistance to turning the body (technically the moment of inertia) is less. For another, the planes perpendicular to the spine at the hips and shoulders are parallel, and this allows the maximum transfer of angular momentum from the hips and shoulders to the skis. Also, the diaphragm and ribs are free to allow for easy breathing. If you continuously run out of breath while skiing, you are probably holding these parts of your body tight without knowing it. (Of course, if you just came up to the mountain yesterday from a desk job at sea level, you may have a different problem, which could be cured by a little jogging)

    The problem of correcting this faulty way of skiing then becomes one of increasing body awareness, so that we can learn to feel if we are really in a good skiing posture or not.

    Here is one way to do this. The next time you go skiing, find a flat level spot and stand still, skis slightly apart. Remove your poles and place them on the ground. Now begin to slowly twist your body from left to right. Continue, letting your arms be carried from left to right and back by the shoulders. Repeat this many times, and as you move, fix your attention on the bottoms of your feet, and note how they move against the boot. Then move up to your ankles. Can you feel the ankles twisting a little inside the boots? Let your attention wander slowly up your body, through your calves, knees, thighs, hips, chest, neck and head. Try to feel if all the parts are moving easily with respect to each other, or there are stiff areas.

    By moving slowly and easily like this we can feel what's happening in our bodies. When actually skiing, we are usually too concerned with the mechanics of staying upright to be able to continuously scan our bodies in this way.

    Continue to twist easily left and right. Try to feel your hips turning with respect to your skis, your shoulders turning a little farther than your hips, and your head turning a little farther than your shoulders. What are your eyes doing? Let your eyes look easily to the left as you twist left, to the right when you twist right. Can you feel any change in your body when you involve your eyes in the motion?

    When you have a good feeling for the turning motion, stop and bend forward a little, rounding your back. Bring your head down towards your knees a little. Try the turning movement now. There should be a clearly discernible increase in the effort required to turn. By exaggerating the faulty posture in this way it becomes easy to sense the difference in effort required to turn the body. How does it feel to breathe in this position?

    Go back to your habitual stance and twist left and right a few times, then bend forward and twist some more. When you can clearly sense the difference in effort required to turn in the two positions, stand up straight. Continue to twist, and see if you can find a configuration of your body where the effort required to turn is even less than in your normal posture. To do this, try bending your knees a little more, then a little less. Lean forward as far as you can, then back as far as you can; try to arch your back a little, or change the position of your head, and so on. All the while, swing slowly left and right and scan your body as before. Make sure that you don't hold your breath as you move.

    When you have a good feeling for this motion, pick up your poles, and try to do it while moving slowly across the hill. By beginning slowly you can start to integrate your newly found awareness into your skiing. If you immediately head down the hill at full speed, your old habits will take over, and the exercise won't work for you.

    If you cannot clearly sense the difference in effort required to turn your body in various positions, you have found the reason that you cannot ski well - that is, you are unable to sense the difference between good and bad skiing postures.

    By moving slowly and paying attention to your body, as you just did, you can increase your awareness or ability to feel how your body moves. This increased awareness will result in a direct increase in skiing ability."

    Did he then progress to using this movement as a pre turn ? Have to find his book to find out....