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Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by dossa5, May 27, 2016.
Hmm, should be (very) achievable...
I point to the active inside arm before his very first turn, after that it is not so easy to appreciate and emulate unless you are in the groove.
No inside arm, no anticipation.
This here is the second of my "How NOT to" collection. Inside arm and shoulder not only not timed correctly, but not even involved .
... nor transition although it does sort of move the inside chest/shoulder to a forward and ready position!
Can only find one inside arm drill in recent history. Known as the Heinman drill in Germany or the Schlopy drill in the US.
"The Schlopy drill is excellent for working on counter and angulation. Ditch the poles. Outside hand goes on outside hip and pushes hip into turn. Inside shoulder is kept high. Inside hand is driven forward at shoulder height, elbow extended. Inside knee is driven into the turn to maintain edge angle symmetry. "
2004 was when Waist Steering came and went, pity.
But the 2004 pot thickens:
"**Ted Legity studied Tai Chi with TommyK last summer along with Schlope and other US Team members."
Waist Steering produced Nastar winners from 50 year olds. They tried to commercialize it. Big Mistake.
Honest testimonials were then taken as advertising spin.
Schlopy exercise from skiracing.com. Explanation carefully omitted to mention inside arm. Looks like only Schlopy himself knew what it was about.
Hmm, you will notice that there is actually a two part anticipation/transition process to Ligety's turn. Initially inside (finish of old turn) then outside (new/next turn) although it is an outside/inside process!
1st Part... The arm/hand movement is initially an outside, then inward, forearm rotation, movement that becomes an inside forward (and upward if need be) hand movement to force the outside ski to drive into the inside of the next turn which is now an inside movement (and initiates the unweighting of the new outside ski). This forward hand movement initiates the anticipation/transition process for new/next turn. DbSki, your Step on the inside Ski process is similar except Ligetys is an upper body movement although both are an outside/inside process. Another outside/inside process, if done correctly, is to reverse rotate the hand/wrist/forearm which can drive/steer both skis through the turn and then force the outside ski to drive into the inside of the next turn which is now an inside movement (and initiates the unweighting of the new outside ski).
2nd Part... the initial new outside hand/arm movement completes the anticipation/transition process by initially further unweighting the new/next outside ski and moving the new/next outside chest/shoulder forward, which then permits the driving/steering of both skis through the turn, especially through the inward, forearm rotation, movement.
Looks like only Schlopy himself knew what it was about. He was a wild freeskier.
"Inside hand is DRIVEN forward at shoulder height". I have looked at a dozen efforts at this exercise and every one just POSITIONS the hand forward. Misses the point of the exercise completely. Can't find a demo by the man himself.
OK, KL, we now might as well look at the early extension which must accompany the anticipation for it to help a racer win a race.
But that should happen automatically, of course.
Hmm, is Ligety's technique good for bumps and/or powder? Shiffrin's technique seems to be at least good for powder!
They are both more adaptable to whatever technique it takes to do the job than us mortal skiers, surely?
But as well as developing core speed and core strength, they have had to transcend this strange fixation with action below the waist. I now firmly believe that only generational change can repair the irrational blindness that permeates the whole of present ski methods.
Even extreme skiers whose life depends on anticipation are not immune. I laugh and cry simultaneously...
Hmm, so you think that they would use a variation of the technique displayed in the videos?
Hmm, so it seems!
The basic extension towards fall line and flex across the fall line would apply to every variation.
It allows every essential ingredient: Fall towards the new turn with blocked anticipation rotation catching a strong and earliest edge, push out to make pressure in the first half of the turn where gravity does not assist, retract to prevent overpressure and assist recovery.
An exception is for the survival turn above which the op cannot emulate. His brain insists that the upper body is a stationary lump which his legs can twist against, not the most powerful muscle group in the whole body.
And the chance of using those muscles on a 50 degree slope is zero unless every resort turn has been a Bel turn!
The proper Pedal Hopper points his lower ski straight down into the void before blocking a rotation to safely bring his top ski around. A leap of faith to be sure, to be sure..
ok. BUT i DUNNO ABOUT THE UNWEIGHTING. Flattening, more like , unweighting usually applies to the old non-anticipatory transitions.
Present instruction, with a holy grail of fulcrum rotation, tends to produce skiers like our doomed Pedal Hopper.
As masters of every variation, good instructors can no doubt appreciate this bias, but must teach what they are told to teach.
What say you?
It is presented as a very advanced and difficult technique, worthy of many private lessons, but every beginner kid can do it, not that they usually want to. There is no joy in learning to edge pivot slips.
Hehe. Found an Epicski posting of the Bob Barnes rundown on the 5 different types of rotation. Which he says must ALL be mastered by the well balanced skier.
"Not current!" cry the fully fledged fulcrum following fellows. But the physics have not changed.
From BBarnes above, I correct my definition of Bel rotation. Bel rotation involves "Stopped Rotation", not "Blocked Rotation", which refers to interaction between pole and snow.
KL, I can now see how your reference to an "anticipated position" works. It involves interaction with a pole plant??
From BBarnes above:
"A more likely example of anticipation-release involves strengthening the Blocking rotary mechanism described above. Stand on the stool, square over your feet, facing the bar and plant your pole in the bar. Turn the stool as before using blocking. Now try again, but this time start facing sideways to the bar. First, turn your shoulders toward the bar to twist your body and create a “stretch zone” in your torso and abdomen. Notice that you must use muscles to maintain this twisted (“anticipated”) position. Now plant your pole again in the bar. If you simply relax (release the tension), your body will untwist. If your pole is properly planted to block the upper body, all the turning will happen in the lower body and the stool will turn. The torque that turns the stool still actually comes from the push of the bar against the pole, but the linkage through the body to the feet (the lever arm) is more powerful because of the pre-stretched muscles. "
Hmm, a better term is Controlled Rotational Flow or simply Rhythmic/Smooth Rotational Flow (I believe that you would call this Bel)!
No pole plant required!
A simple way to teach/show/demonstrate this (no poles required) outside/inside (skis follow) method can be as follows...
place the right outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position then
keeping the hands in close proximity to each other (always within 10cms of each other and closer)
begin moving the outside right hand and the inside left hand from the right side to the left side of the body where the outside right forearm/wrist/hand rotates inwardly and the inside forearm/wrist/hand rotates outwardly/reversely (ie. right hand follows left hand)
the left hand movement controls the right outside rotational movement and forces a Rhythmical/Smooth Outside Rotational Flow
turning left... then vice versa for the left turn... and so on! You will notice that keeping the hands in close proximity to each other forces an outside chest/shoulder forward ready position and a Rhythmical/Smooth Outside/Inside Rotational Flow
Recreational skiers could/can easily learn this no poles outside/inside method/flow where it is easy to perform short to long turns at very slow, slow, medium, fast speeds. I believe, that they could easily become advanced to expert skiers simply through this method and even find Black (and higher) runs of any type terrain quite easy! I believe, that this is a very low knee injury method!
All good and all fun
This simple no poles outside/inside method/flow can be taken further through further opening the outside chest/shoulder/arm at the finish/beginning of each turn. The more the outside chest/shoulder/arm is opened the more the skis are driven down the fall line but the down side is the harder it is to maintain a Rhythmic/Smooth Rotational Flow because the hands become further and further apart at the finish/beginning of each turn! Ligety can and does use a open outside chest/shoulder/arm method but he is super excellent at maintaining and ensuring a Rhythmic/Smooth Rotational Flow where the hands again meet (or are in close proximity) at the finish of the turn. Ligetys ACL injury is unfortunate but he is always skiing and training on the edge (at the limit)!
"Hmm, a better term is Controlled Rotational Flow or simply Rhythmic/Smooth Rotational Flow (I believe that you would call this Bel)!"
It obviously is an advanced and effective style but I think that I would call it a noble technique ( NO BEL! and not the most essential part of Ligeti )
"A simple way to teach/show/demonstrate this (no poles required) outside/inside (skis follow) method can be as follows.
*.Place the right outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position then.."
We are both in a tiny minority that would agree that SKIS FOLLOW, but the One Little Girl In Blue above is demonstrating an exaggerated Bel Anticipation for a right turn, and she is moving her LEFT shoulder forward.
It is the STOPPING of this rotation that allows Ligeti to make the two winning transition moves which few can copy.
1. His hip is magically over the new outside ski. (Fulcrum racers say that he is moving his new inside ski back, but that does not work.)
2. He can begin extending before transition. (see above clip) An ordinary turn uses extension AT transition.
I think that we had better start producing sequential drawings to show the basic difference in our styles.
You can't blame Ligeti if he tries to maintain his dominance by confusing his competition.
If you really have made an attempt to emulate his style from that clip, you might have realized that his upper body timing is all over the place. Watched 400,000 times, but probably nobody has called him on it? Deliberate confusion, and it has apparently worked well..
So ignore the first 10 turns. You only get the stale messages about changing inclination and increasing edge pressure by driving the arm upward. The body rotation is meaningless for a reason.
THEN, when he thinks that he is out of sight, he drops into correct Bel timing, which my 10 year olds use for linking turns.
See his INNER arm sweep forward and up from the snow, starting that beautiful turn with perfect timing of anticipation.
BBB:"No inside arm, no anticipation"
Even Harold Harb says something similar. After analysing thousands of race videos, he still blindly insists that in the case of our two skiers under the microscope, their powerful anticipation just consists of "holding their counter".
No! They are "starting the new turn before the old one finishes" (Ligeti).
Also Shiffrin, of course. Upper body separation becomes an ACTIVE rather than PASSIVE move.
The season is dying. I am just going to the windsurfer and may be some time.
Yes, indeed, if the inside chest/shoulder is in a forward and ready position (while the current turn is proceeding) then this implies that anticipation for the next turn has already begun (been prepared for), before the current turn has finished! Even recreational skiers using the method I have described (above) can do (will be doing) this and is why this technique can perform very very short turns at very low/low speed with any terrain. No, need to go a bit (alot) faster with this technique (as is often, and dangerously, recommended)
BBB, I believe, the nice aspect with the technique I have described is that a learner can be taken from snow plow to parallel skiing (no poles required), fairly easily
BBB, can you, again, display the video that you are referring too?
out, up, in, down (swing), forward, then up... all to easy really!
Maybe not, the devil is in the detail, actually. The timing of the block of the powerful inside arm swing must be just BEFORE transition, not simultaneous with it.
That Facebook clip does not support slow motion, hard to see when the timing is not synched correctly.
I have previously shown Reilly. a beautiful skier, Ligetting WITHOUT the Bel move.
A so called "hybrid turn" does not use an anticipatory block. It is one turn at a time. From the instructors bible.
Can you see zero anticipation?
Ahh, now I see why you have misinterpreted what I have suggested! What I have suggested actually does the same thing, just a little more rhythmically and allows the timing to be simpler. Simpler why, because your hands are moving in front of your eyes and this is especially important in whiteouts, bumps, powder, steeps, and when someone is learning the technique/method. This simply provides a better feel of the process, I believe! The stronger block/control can easily be done later as a variation because it requires more feel and timing!!!
Why call it BEL?
Reilly's technique/method is simply another very nice variation, I believe! It would appear to me that he is still controlling/blocking rotation with the opposite side (inside), I believe!
Nioce that we continue to avoid SDR (Snow Deprivation Rage). Expressing salt water from the sinus via the nose must keep the brain supple.
Ski moves are basically simple, but when they affect several turn parameters simultaneously, the analysis and explanations get too hard for most skiers to bother with. "It works, just do it!". But to optimize moves, better to fully understand them.
Reilly is controlling/blocking rotation, yes, but is he USING it to full effect? No, it occurs DURING Transition.
I use the Bel label to describe any one-two interaction between the upper and lower body between turns, shorthand for the results of our painful year of search for common ground.
One-two interactions (inner/outer?) must be planned and deliberate, whereas one-one moves are instantaneous adjustments.
eg DbSki increasing edge loading to save loss of carve by accelerating the arms upward is one-one . Equal and opposite reactions! Newton wins again!
I insist that your "forward/ready of inside arm/shoulder" is actually the blocking (sorry, "stopping") end of a one-two rotation. We are arguing about nothing, it would seem.
Why is "Hybrid Turn" applied to an advanced technique?
It is the latest buzz word throughout the mishmash of what has become an "International Technique."
The label was coined by the Japanese when developing a style that would be easier on their older skiers.
It involves NO INPUT to the top of the turn, just letting gravity do the job. No amount of extreme knee pivot can fully compensate for such a pitiful beginning, although it can look impressive.
It is the exact opposite to the Korean style of top down power, which Ray Yang described as "Like a TaeKwondo Punch"
Today's musings from a muser:
"If skiers don’t know how to achieve a high edge angle and apply pressure to said edge, putting them on too wide a ski will ensure that this skill forever eludes them" hmm
Team Bears are now skilled with the shoulder rotation dynamics!!!
Little Bears now use the SR technique(as discussed at length by BBB in previous posts) when approaching the crowded bar at Kittens....the Team Swivel in.. and manage to catch the eye of the bar maid with those manourvers so they can order another asahi beer. Truly its a great technical advance on our previous tumbling/falling methodology...
but girls up the poles seem to feel advanced technique involves core strength and timing and shoulder rotation and edging playing a more minor role when hitting the fall line....
but Ubi would not always be in the best state to evaluate these claims after too many Nippo Beverages
girls seem to have no fear and cum straight down the fall line without a thought on the technical aspects...
Swatsanigger would approve of your elevation of the fairer sex to a pedastle on which they can be admired.
Will send yr post to the silly ole lady who emailed me " Thanks for the lesson, I can now ski for longer than I can walk!"
Oh well, if it keeps her away from the pokies for a while...
Probably like Harold Harb, I don't like my instructing staff to diverge radically from the philosophy of the style.
But I understand that special exercises may need to be merged with Basic Bel to cure various faults.
So as long as ski follow shoulders, whatever it takes.
Here we learn to maintain centering during flex.
Listening to that breathing I'm going to forever think of the "Creepy Turn"
Tried a few audio clips that they play at Kittens, but none really suited.
Bel is taking off in France, they don't ski like us at all.
well we can agree that the French girls are the greatest....
Team Bears say that even BBB can learn from their beautiful emotional technique....
the way they roll their shoulders/hips, and they initiate turns with subtle head movements also...
Bears could be excellent Bel instructors, I am thinking.
They obviously appreciate a well rounded technique, but might need to start watching boys as well.
Adrian, inventor of Floskis will offer demos at Perisher next week.
Thought that you might make the trip and try them with Bel technique.
Just on the offchance that Dianna might be coming...
I meant THIS week, of course.
Post reviews here, I will offer no comments..
Dianna was surprised that nobody remembered her actual skiing style.
For the hungry Bears: " Look at my feet, this time!"
Yes. You know the magic of Bel but I feel that the necessary complete understanding of the power transfer involved still eludes you. A full understanding allows a more flexible application at any point of the turn.
You are far from alone in this, watch P J Jones produce what he thinks are perfect demonstrations of 20 different classic styles. But his EVERY turn uses a hop unweight instead of the necessary rotation transfer from the previous turn.
This residual effect of US brainwashing is hard to believe.
Even his " Stein Turn" shows no sign of Skis Follow Shoulders!
So it is no longer a Stein Turn, of course.
I will look within US for remnants of our endangered technique.
Where does it HAVE to be used except in racing?
I remember Winter Park teaching it effectively to one ski amputees.
Stunning footwork and pressure control
Anyone try the flo skis ?
The master of footwork and pressure control. Winner of style medals. Master of the Hybrid Entry.
Which wastes an opportunity for a more extended edge pressure period and hence a reduced edge pressure average .
Run at quarter speed and you will see NO EARLY PRESSURE in the top of the turn.
The give away is the snow displacement after the fall line instead of on it or even before it.
Show ponies please copy
Aha! Still superior style!
(Winter Park got a Guinness record recently by getting a thousand people standing on one leg for 2 minutes. )
This from 1974. But it could be yesterday. No one leg skier has a stem hangover.
" Turns are initiated using "anticipation" and the result is a smooth, fluid technique.
The Winter Park Technique didn't just happen. It required many hours of experimentation,
careful analysis, critical observation and the efforts of certified ski teachers to develop the
system to its present state-of-the-art.
Unlike some amputee teaching techniques, the system used to train skiers at Winter Park
results in a rhythmical style. There is nothing stiff or static about their relaxed form. But
more importantly, their skiing is fundamentally strong, aggressive and dynamic. They have
used their distinct style to win races and ski in full control on the steepest, most challenging
terrain to be found. We are proud of our amputees. They are beautiful skiers."
please no talk of hangovers.....
how the Team get back from Kittens some times !! their technique can be questionable...
and talk of the challenging terrain...poor Bears hardly manage to negotiate Kittens Staircase with out a hand from their favourite girls...
We try to avoid the "Quiet Upper Body" in this thread.
Not , however, by producing loud sounds of regurgitation (chunder thunder).
Even so, they might be natural Waist Steerers.
Gotta start young..
Edge pressure all the way around! You are being short changed if your instructor suggests anything else.
Some Pallander Porn to show the way to initiate with anticipation.
that kids helmet is a beauty..
but body style looks a bit rigid...looks like poor kid has been eating tent poles for brekky...
looks like he/she is feeling their way down slope in a similar way to the body language that first timers to Kittens display...
Just to visit the BBB thread indicates that you are at a loose end and itching for some action. Get well sooon.
But note that Kitten massage is has not been approved as medical treatment.
Thanks for your offer to upgrade the route to the New Feather but a handrail might offend the purist tourists.