The BBB thread

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by dossa5, May 27, 2016.

  1.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    High Adventuring! "the door would no longer shut" was obviously the least of the structural problems.
    Do you recall where ski run clearings were said to have taken place?
    "There was some clearing of ski runs on Feathertop and as the railways began to realise the potential of the Bungalow and the mountain, a few more were cut in 1934, but the treeline was a little lower in those days. "
     
  2.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Last edited: Jun 19, 2016
  3.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Feather run is from 5100 ft to 4000 ft.
    Set for Sep 30, long time away...
     
  4.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Back from the future... These skis make sense to me. Light as a feather, WITH bindings.
    Catching the first Hotham snow, obviously chosen by enthusiasts.
    BUT, they are AT setup.
    Dossa, please remind me again why they [​IMG] are inferior to a Telemark System ??
     
  5.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    That system has lasted 40 years, must have something good going for it. Boots can still be bought.
    Today I tried to ski home on a students hire skis, and was horrified to find them with so little tail that I could not stay centered.
    Even with the whole binding moved forward as far as possible, they were only just passable.
    Poor public!
    Everybody insist on Elan hires please.
     
  6.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    And to cap off your skiing career (we assume you have skied Dubai with penguins) , There is now Carpet Skiing (not Magic Carpet) available at night at Hotham. Because the carpet travels continuously upward under your skis, it must be considered a run longer than any in the European Alps.
     
  7.  
    dossa5

    dossa5 Dedicated Member

    Did I say that.
    Actually had a ride on a Meidjo setup yesterday and although having boots/skis way too big they seemed to ski nicely.

    Some gear although seem heavy actually ski light if that makes any sense.
     
  8.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    um might have been skifree who said "
    If it has a bellows it is a boot.
    If it does not have a bellows it is a box.
    "
    Heavy boots good for crudbusting?
     
  9.  
    dossa5

    dossa5 Dedicated Member

    Yep hes right
     
  10.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Call for help from the Heights of Hotham.
    Snow report reports that skiing is excellent and grooming has taken place on "Harper's Face".
    Not on the trail map, somewhere in Heavenly, who is (was) Harper, did he do a monumental face plant down said slope?
     
  11.  
    Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Before Imagine was sculpted down the bottom, and the trees removed, it used to be called Harper's Gully. I assume that Harper's Face is the steeper face on the middle 1/3 of Imagine, on the Snake Gully side of Imagine
     
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  12.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    A good time to look at boots. I prefer Heads because an expert is not needed to get your feet flat.
    This is most important if you want to Ski Like A Surfer.
    Allen key adjustment on the side of the boots lets one compensate for the most extreme bow legs or knock knees.
    An expert could tell us which of this season's boots have this facility.
    Sandy, you are de man who could let people choose beauty as well as function here? [​IMG]
     
  13.  
    Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    bawbawbells enthusiastic posts are noted by the Team...

    we are a little confused by route descriptions...

    looking down from Nth Peak there would appear a logical progression down spur/ridge lines however from above there appears to be a tricky(linking saddle) involved in this route....Bears may give this a try out next summer ....one would have to consider where they will exit across the west Kiewa or on to logging road perhaps before it crosses the west Kiewa...

    the blackberries would be a disaster should you lob in a patch of them...so planning from above after a sorte below to consider the jungle content lower down...we think it is highly likely that old tracks exist on this:love: obvious route looking from above and reflecting on topographic maps at the same time...
     
  14.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    The old route shows up on Google Maps but in half a dozen ascents it never became obvious to me.
    Blackberry barrier is only 15 meters wide as the ascent is steepest from the river right there near the upstream ford of Big Logs.
    Once I tied trail ribbons to trees on the way up so I could leave later from the North Peak on my day trip. I must have overdone it as an offended navigator had removed most of them by next season.
    Once I decided to take the longer route down on the same linking saddle and ended up benighted in blackberries (bad).
    Once I crested the ridge to find a bedlam of wind destruction of the snowgums.
    Best laid plans......
     
  15.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    I have often seen a lenticular (lens shaped, stationary) cloud above Feathertop but that looks nothing like a feather.
    I think we should look for an opinion from someone who has interviewed dozens of families of actors from early Feathertop.
    How about from Tor Tolth's book
    "Cattlemen of the High Country
    The Story of Mountain Cattlemen of the Bogongs"
    He seems aware of the controversy, but firmly supports my "Nike Tick" theory: or your "Half Feather" theory: (note the plural "layerS":)
    He writes:
    "Feathertop's craggy peak is often teased by fluffy white clouds tossed on currents of air.
    It's name is thought to have arisen from the feather-like layers of snow which lie on the mountain in the late Spring"
     
  16.  
    VSG

    VSG Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    Yes.
     
  17.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    "Canting? I thought that it would have been set correctly in the shop"
    Sorry, my dear, unless they had you stand on a canting adjuster, which locates the centre of the knee, no such luck.
    It is best done on the snow, anyway. Just try skating on one ski with the adjustment (located near the ankle) in different positions until it feels best.
     
  18.  
    nightbird

    nightbird Just Registered

  19.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    [​IMG] Often skiers give up because they cannot ski smoothly with a canting problem.
    Mountain cattlemen might need special attention. :)
    Ladies need special attention because of their Q angle (wider hips and hence often knock knees) .
     
  20.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Now feathers are finally fixed and finalised we may look back 7 years to when VSG flew around the mountain using the SAME Spot data that we see on Google Earth today. The Feather is seen at the right of the early part of the flight.
    So
    DON'T drop in to the valley where the Spot spot of snow is revealed. Continue PAST North Peak!

    (Sorry for blathering on, but this is of extreme importance beside the steepest runs in OZ)
    The Real Feather was skied without steel edges!
     
  21.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    On steep runs , look for the skier with the roundest turn.
    He (skier's left) gets earliest edge engagement from anticipation.
    Forget pole plant, it prevents pre rotation.
    .
     
  22.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Confidence on steep icy slopes is the key to successfully mastering them. This comes from having sharp edges.
    [​IMG]
     
  23.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    My avatar features the Mambo, which is now compulsory for adult entry to the Bel Ski System which corrects overemphasis on knee skiing.
    Most intermediate instructors can now teach it on request, I believe.
    Your upper body turns in the opposite direction to your lower to link turns.
    This is how you DON'T do it!
     
  24.  
    stansi

    stansi Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Gee, that was a really good idea of @dossa5 to give You your very own thread.
     
  25.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    So peaceful here. You are the only expert skier to read it today.
    There are two different exercises to teach Mambo. The short cut method is for skiers like yourself who have well developed core control using the fast twitch muscles.
    Stand with poles vertical, forward and slightly out from the body.
    Rotate shoulders back and forth to extremes with poles remaining vertical. Don't stop.
    Start turns down the fall line , rotating one way while you turn the other way.
    I know that you normally complete transitions in a tenth of a second and one ski length, but for the exercise leave your skis flat for a while as the shoulder rotation is reversing.
    Continue all day until knee swivel is optional.
    Wear your original ski jumper as a new member of an exclusive club. :)
     
  26.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

  27.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Actually, she can plank for more than five minutes, but just wants to be your mate.
    [​IMG]
     
  28.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Don't talk, just ski.
    The Bel move in a free ski keeps those edges loaded all the way around.

    .
     
  29.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold


    DaWooduck posted this on a thread which is presently featuring the ancient APSI technique.
    Soon to be updated, no doubt
    Especially regarding use of shoulders in childrens' basic snowplough.
    Less observant readers will agree that cross blocking has been around since the 80's.
    But it has taken 60 years for racers to realize that the ultimate slalom style would incorporate cross blocking with Bel anticipation..
    Which is cross blocking with the INSIDE arm and glove.
     
  30.  
    KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

    Ahh, I can see why you are so Bel. Cross blocking, while a form of very early Anticipation and is strong and powerful, requires good timing which means that it must be continually practiced to ensure good feel and timing. Cross blocking has a slightly unnatural feel because both sides of the body are interacting at the same time during the finish of the turn, which causes a fighting for control which needs to be mastered, and the Bel process is the simplest form/process using this method! There is an even simpler method/process that feels completely natural and intuitive which has a better flow from finishing the turn to anticipation/transition of the next turn. It is an outside/downhill process that only requires the same side to block/control rotation and has a more natural/intuitive turn finish and anticipation/transition into the next turn... all good and all fun :)
     
  31.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    S'good.
    The first question my students ask is "Why is anticipation only an inside forward movement? Surely an outside backward movement is exactly the same."
    The only specific is that it must take place BEFORE transition and centering is not affected.
    Looking again at free spirit Michaela, it will be seen that her perfect balance requires an inside movement for a top turn (the UPHILL side of her path) and an outside backward movement for the bottom turn.
    Any use of the old "plant pole and turn around it" prevents either of these anticipations.

    I am getting great results from the following exercise:
    Take old styler down slope steeper than their comfort zone.
    they traverse with their next pole plant wavering unbegun in front of them while they squeal "Too steep, too steep !"
    You shout loudly "Look down the slope !!"
    They forget the pole plant and produce an anticipated turn.
    Arrive at the bottom with the elation at a lesson learned.
     
  32.  
    KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

    Well BBB, it would appear that we are the only 2 interested in this Anticipation style/method. I used to do what you are sort of posting about but I now perform it as I have indicated which has less upper body movement (but perhaps slightly more arm/elbow/wrist/hand movement) and has a one side then the other side style/method/approach (better timing and flow).

    I have not seen instructors teach this but I have seen racers using variations of this style/method. So, it must be being taught at higher levels because Ligety and Shiffrin do this style (with their own variation) and it would appear that the Koreans do it (with their own variation) ... that's life, that's skiing, no pole planting required, no poles required but nice to have :)
     
  33.  
    dossa5

    dossa5 Dedicated Member

    I hate poles but I do feel at home holding them
     
  34.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Problem: Next day they complain that it doesn't work anymore. This is because they now look downhill continuously.
    Static position vs Dynamic rotation.
    Timing becomes all important.

    Good summary, KL. I need occasional encouragement, like today when Zirky enthused about my rear entries.
    After all, BBB is not Bill Barker, but I did expect interest from skiers who do not wish to continue to use their knees, for one reason or another.
     
  35.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    What appears to happen is that skiers in pain look in vain for an internet solution.
    The truth is that only BBB can help you.
    You don't need new knees just yet!
    Send me five hundred dollars for a solution. (Or just ask me!)
     
  36.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Thank you for your emails and letters.
    As some suspect, knee damage does indeed often arise from using fat powder skis within the resort, or, in the case of Australia, anywhere.
    Early Rise tips, thankfully now superceded, are also to blame due to reduced and imprecise edge contact on piste which results in the skier never entering the zone of relaxed turns.
    A complete Bel technique makeover is overkill for a recreational skier, however, just using full upper body anticipation in every turn is enough to reduce knee strain effects by 75 percent.
    Good Luck!
     
  37.  
    KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

    Hmm, does that mean that ski instructors shouldn't be teaching this (even with easier/simpler/intuitive variations), or that ski instructors can't teach this because it is also beyond them, or does the BBB Bel technique require further simplification/intuitiveness?
     
  38.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    The problem is just that old farts have old technique burnt into their read only memories. And they have made it work really well. But eventually they are only good for a two hour session before a deadly knee fatigue puts them in real danger of bad crashes as they fail to absorb.
    My five year old pupils should be eventually good for 30 years of free skiing Bend ze knees, but not too much.
     
  39.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Free ski for over 70's! But not for long after that unless basic instruction includes ringing the Bel!
    The Ligeti inside arm swing (see other thread) shows the way.
    like
    KL, the old ways will die hard. For instance, the old "punch anticipation" using the OUTSIDE arm and pole is not anticipation at all. It simply unweights the skis by weighting the tips. Knee steering takes it from there. Get it right and it is lightning fast and classy. But it's gotta go.
     
  40.  
    KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

    Yes!... all good, and I think with the correct/simplified/intuitive variation that the outside/inside technique (perhaps Ligetys but most likely a variation, perhaps mine or yours or ducks!) can be taught to recreational skiers (and of course higher) then there will be many more advanced/expert skiers and dramatically fewer knee injuries (perhaps none)... all good, BBB :)
     
  41.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    But even then, my message is lost :( Am I THAT indecipherable?
    My otherwise promising student says "That Chinese Mambo looks OK, actually"
    My foolish fool, that demonstration is NOT even slightly like Mambo style.
    If you play it quarter speed, you will see shoulders move in the SAME direction as the skis.
    Mambo windup must be in the OPPOSITE direction.
    Give me strength....
     
  42.  
    KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

    Yep, certainly can be and often are :) Is that a Korean Mambo? What is Mambo?
     
  43.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Some people are fine skiers but poor listeners.
    There are two paths to Bel:
    1.Mambo.
    2.. For skiers that do not yet link turns (usually very young kids):
    Natural youngster skiers will end up with a Ligeti turn initiation if allowed to free ski without "instruction".
    They flip their uphill hand forward. As it stops the rotation is transferred to the skis. They have fun and ski everywhere.
    At this point the instructor will usually tell the concerned parent " That rotation must be nipped in the bud! We will go back to snowplough and edge the outside ski by leaning over it. "
    And so begin the never ending classes towards skiing in a straightjacket.
     
  44.  
    KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

    Interesting and sounds very reasonable :)
     
  45.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Even here there is confusion. The "Uphill Hand" to start an isolated turn from across the hill is, of course, the INSIDE hand of the previous turn if turns are linked. The neglected LIGETI MOVE.
    Maybe if I called the previous turn the SETUP TURN ankebiters would get the drift?
     
  46.  
    KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member


    Wordage!!! but this fellow, at 90, does outside/inside turns...
     
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  47.  
    KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member


    In some ways Ligety's style is nearly/sortof a variation of (the same as) big tray/little tray... but combined with outside/inside at the same time!
     
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  48.  
    KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

    Wordage!!! Outside/Inside means that the transition/turn are an outside process/method, and the finish is completed with inside anticipation for the next transition/turn, while the outside turn is still in process. Such as, moving the inside chest/shoulder to a forward and ready position in anticipation of the next outside transition/turn process/method, while the outside turn is still in process... consistent wordage is good :)
     
  49.  
    bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member Season Pass Gold

    Got it.
    But definition/ wordage must be simple ie you lean towards the inside of any turn and anything on that side we should call the inside arm/shoulder/hand/knee/ski/ right up to transition to your other edges.


    Tommy. Wonderbar! But you should not proclaim that he is still using upper/ lower body torque transfer.
    He used anticipation in the old black and white footage, but now his shoulders follow his skis.
    His back could now be more fragile than his knees.
     
  50.  
    dossa5

    dossa5 Dedicated Member

    Ive watched this flick so many times and just admire the skiing.
    Still trying to replicate this on my teles.