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Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Peagreenboat, Aug 19, 2016.
Have been reading Paul parker's 'Freeheel Skiing' and I'm interested in getting a few tele lessons as well.
So to recap:
- there's a handful of tele instructors at Falls and Hotham
- but they're highly specialised in a lot of areas - so book well in advance
- there might be issues with using non resort / touring tele gear (?) - just got a set of madshus epochs with rotefella chilli bindings and am planning to get a pair of andrews zenith boots
Should be no issue using whatever gear you plan to tele on.
I think all you would need is ski leashes so your skis don't take off if you take a fall. This is what I am talking about.
yup! got those already too. sitting in my top drawer ready for winter.
two more questions:
- are there any tele instructors at lake mountain or baw baw / st gwinear?
- what's the Melbourne Nordic Ski Club like with providing tele lessons? its pretty cheap to join and they claim on their site to provide lessons for members
No tele instruction at bb in recent years (that I know of) and not specifically at LM, although some of their xc instructors are expert skiers who could surely demonstrate such turns on skinny skis. Gwinear has volunteer ski patrollers only, no formal lessons. MNSC are friendly people who like sharing the mountains and seem to know what they are doing but you have to commit to their timetable in terms of excursions to different venues as they mostly book in advance. Canadian guy teaching at Stirling in recent years has a solid reputation but I have not managed to get up there when he was available. Ziggy has a pal who is highly regarded as a teacher but you would need to get to FC or Hotham to link up with him, I think.
Got a couple mates keen to learn to tele as well, so might see if I can set up a two hour group lesson at Stirling when Ziggy is around.
You're better off spending your Telemark lesson time on the lifts. You get much more time skiing to help you make changes. Groomed snow also makes it easier to make changes than in variable BC snow.
Can you give me some gear advice? (Maybe this would be better posted in the equipment section - but while I've got you... )
I've just bought the epochs and hard cable rottefella chillies and have asked the wilderness shop to order me in some leather zeniths in my size (haven't actually agreed to buy them yet - its part of their bigger order they put in every year with the Bogong shop).
I'm attracted to this set up because I'm trying to balance the ability to tour but also have enough rigidity and power to enjoy some downhill skiing - ideally tele but also stem christies and parallel. I like the idea of leather because I'll be needing to hike / walk / wear crampons at certain points and would prefer not to carry two sets of boots. Thinking of multi day trips to Bogong and Stirling in winter and shoulder seasons, maybe Feathertop one day. Also planning trips to Mt Nelse / Johnston Hut, Mt Wills, Keppels Hut.
Zeniths seem like a good boot with their high cuff and ankle strap but also would allow me to loosen the ankle strap and walk in it. Also just like the old school retro-ness of leather and the fact everybody used to ski in them. This set up is in Paul Parker's book too, though obviously that's from the late 80s...
Having said that, the skis aren't set up yet and the boots aren't bought yet, so still could be persuaded into swapping the chillis for a G3 Targa and getting plastic Scott excursions instead.
Have read conflicting things, some people seem to think you should stick to plastic and argue it's easier to learn in, others say its good to learn in leather because its harder and will ultimately make you a better skier. Also still seems to me this leather / hard cable set up is best suited to the multi day touring / bit of downhill trips I have in mind.
I skied all of my early tele years with leather boots because that was all there was.....IMHO get a pair of well fitted plastic boots that suit your intended use. Pickup a pair of second hand leather boots for when you want some nostalgia feels.
My advice would be hire gear to learn tele inbounds, the skills will transfer (to an extent dictated by the gear) to your touring set up. I will personally never have another set of leather boots. But thats the thing, its personal. The old school xc dudes and dudettes enjoy what they enjoy. But when they say, I can ski anything on my setup, I can only say, yeah, if thats what you call skiing.
But each to their own, so long as you are enjoying it, you got it right.
For what you're describing you'll be better off in a pair of plastic boots. Probably Excursions or T4s. For starter's you'll be saving a lot of weight, the Zeniths are 1900g, the T4s are 1500g and the Excursions are 1400g. Instead of the Chillis go a pair of Voile Switchbacks. The tour mode makes a large difference to how efficiently you'll be able to cover ground. The plastic boots will give you more control on the down, the switchbacks will give you a more efficient stride, you'll save weight and you're feet wil stay warmer and dryer on overnight trips.
Starting to learn with leather is only something the curmudgeons say, you'll only be making your life much more difficult. I enjoy telemarking in light weight gear, but its something I do for shits and giggles rather than anything serious.
Would the chilli or g3 targa be more conducive to handling both a leather boot and a soft plastic?
Also, would the hard cable be an advantage with the leather? I thought it would be potentially provide more torsional rigidity. Soft cartridge cables seem to clearly work better with plastic.
I.e. should I get a binding that could take both, allowing me to hire plastics to learn inbound, but also allowing me to use leather for outbound touring?
Or is that simply not going to work?
All 75mm boots should work in all 75mm bindings, you may need to grind the duck bill a bit, (75mm is a shit standard).
The problem for your application with both the Chilli and the Targa is that whenever you walk you'll be working against the resistance of the cable springs. With the Voile Switchback you can put the binding into tour mode and not have any springs to fight against. If you prefer the older aesthetic then get a pair of Voile 3-Pin Hardwires. They're less efficient on the flat than switchbacks, but much better than Targas or Chillis.
also, where would I find a voile switchbacks? neither the wilderness shop nor bogong seem to stock them. i ask they might be able to order them in or i could order them in online.
Rhythm Sports in Cooma appear to stock the voile 3pin hardwire in both short and standard rod
Dynafiddle plus ski crampons with patterned base skis & light plastic boots which are crampon compatible....lock the heel
The Epochs rock 〜 I struggled to choose between the Annums and Epochs - and went to Annums which suit my skiing better - Wilderness Shop gave me a good deal (as always)...
But remember some of the old dudes ski more kilometres than the yo yo,s with their plastic boots.Technically they cannot be matched however how they struggle to get more than 5kms from a resort.Most are best described as side country resort muffets.
Look carefully as their posts that always feature the soft tissue abrasions from their placky boots.
They don't regularly get to even Jugungal in Nthn Kosy with their dodgy alpine Gear.
I have used leather boots for 35 years until afew years ago . I think the only thing the plastics don't do as well or better is walking. Having used the G3 Targa's with both types of boot has never been a problem . Ski choice is always a very personal issue and I have yet to step up to something as wide as Annums or Guides although most of my skiing mates douse that style of ski and love them. I recomend lessons at the resort to maximise your tele time. Good luck . Go back country tele til your jelly.
So my thinking so far is that I'm still gonna prevail with the high cuff leather zeniths. Just cos I want a book u can hike in without carrying plastics as well.
However, I'm gonna swap the chillis for the voile hard cable 3 pins. Wilderness shop can't get them in for me but they'll give me credit I can put towards the boots. I'll order them in from ski rhythms in Cooma.
Having said that I'll hire some plastics to practice on around the resorts.
Not true. If you do a survey of Jagungal skiers you'll find the vast majority have placcy boots. Admittedly at the softer end (excursions/T4), but also T2's etc.
My leather boots were awful to my feet - far more abrasive/blistering than the plastics.
Oh, but then again, I do miss the joy of putting on rock solid leather boots in the morning (wet boots freezing overnight).
Would the voile three pin hard wire work with a leather boot or would it chew it up straight away?
If so seems like the best option, in that it would give me the option of leather or plastic.
And just to be clear, everyone here using plastic would be carrying two sets of boots? One pair to ski in and one pair to hike in?
Climbing the staircase doesn't look like it'd be much fun in excursions.
Just chiming in to mirror what someone else said about monomarking. It's seriously the best drill if you want to get better at telemarking. I was pretty Type-A when it came to learning, and I had a list of different drills to go through like delayed lead changes and such, but monomarking was great. Oh and doing reverse telemarking was a really helpful drill as well, by that I mean having your uphill ski out in front instead of the downhill ski. It helps you become confident to be able to make lead changes at all stages of the turn which in turn helps you ski to the conditions Man I wanna go skiing now...
I can't really speak for current trends, but all the English climbers in the late 60's and 70's would walk in to Everest and the other peaks in some sort of running or light walking shoe, only putting on the plastics when they got on the climb itself.
You'll find a mix of, but the second pair is more likely to be runners or lightweight hiking shoes. These double as hut shoes at Cleve Cole.
Tele boots are ok to hike in, but as they get larger than T3 it just harder work. AT almost certainly requires an approach set of shoes or boots.
Suggest you hire some plastic boots, like Excursions from somewhere like Ajays and try them out before you commit to leather boots. Just have to wait until June/July (unless we get an early blast in May).
Thats a good idea.
What do people think of the Fischer BCX boot?
I've not tried them but they look like a cross between plastic and leather, and as such I imagine the stiffness would be somewhere in between too. I just saw they have some on special at Rhythm Snowsports.
Another boot I think could work is the Alpina Alaska 75.
This looks like the sort of set up I'm looking for.
Personally I love my old T-2 boots, so much warmer than leather and I have no trouble doing the miles in them.
If you are going to use the 75mm duckbill then import a set of Switchbacks, so much better for touring
That was the advice given to me on this forum and I'm glad I did.
My old leather boots were Scarpa [ same as the Andrew] and the plastic boot is better in almost all respects
If you decide to get leather boots make sure you buy smiley plates to protect the holes
TP has given you experienced sound advice- you should accept it imo.
Let me know if you are thinking of group lessons and I'll try rendevous if it works for me.
I have had two pairs of leathers with 3 pin Hdmountaineer and have loved them. No wet feet on 5 day backcountry trips. We have some newish mens leathers in our posse I will list at some point. Bought the excursions and have just had custom Palau liners made. Be interesting to see how I go in them. I suspect I will use the leathers in some circumstances but I'm an old school kinda person so will see. Personally I haven't needed the wire yet but depends on how heavy you are, how you ski.
PM me, we're just waiting for a decent snow fall.
So after last years debacle I am intending to invest in some lessons this year. I will be at Buller, Falls and Hotham for a week each and wondered if anyone can recommend me some instructors to ask for. I have my APSI level 1 (just) so I guess I am looking for someone with more than a level 1 cert. I am a bit of a drill queen so someone with that sort of technical teaching style would be ideal.
Any thoughts happily received either here or by PM, Cheers.
Daniel Monohan is a Full Cert Telemark Instructor at Buller. Danielle Brooke can help you out at Falls and Chris Lewczynski at Hotham.
If you want to come to Perisher you can spend some time with the Technical Director
Dat my plan at some stage. Will come up one or two Tuesday nights for a freeski too. Really happy with my skiing atm, but still want to take it further.
Thanks TP I will start making some phone calls.
Its just a bit far for me to come to Perisher otherwise i would happily succumb to your tutelage
@almontyrat an advantage for you if you are at Falls and engage Danielle is that she is passionately involved in development and delivery of ski instruction specific to female physiology....being a key instructor for the Falls Creek "Mims" program.
Cool I will definitely chase her up then as I ski like a chic for sure. all that low center of gravity stuff.
Get in early, she's a great instructor so in high demand.
I'm at Falls from the 22nd. We could see if dossa5 is up for some coaching. I reckon he's the bees knees.
Wow, I just listened to a pod cast with the MD of Black Diamond and how they morphed from Patagonia to Chounard Climbing to Chounard Equipment to Black Diamond the current badge is testimoney to the heritage with the two C's and the diamond (within the diamond). I love reading about where these companies came from, how they have adapted and grown.
Interesting that Chounard Equipment was sold to employees as a result of legal cases and Patagonias decision to go in a different direction than hard core gear.
Anyway I tried to get a lesson with Ken at Thredbo but alas it was his day off so ended up with Enrique. He did a pretty good job as he had my wife and daughter on downhill gear and me on the tele.
I got to work on some better alpine technique and some subtle little improvements on the tele technique.