Ski Instructors, do you teach this?

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by A.L.E, Jan 11, 2014.


    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    I've not taken a ski school lesson for 10 yrs so I'm wondering what's being taught these days and if any significant changes have developed.

    As an example do instructors teach initiating a turn by "tipping" the inside foot as shown in these two How To Ski videos below?

    The skiers on this site who have taught like Carveman, PM, DWD, Seth etc would likely know where the ski schools are taking instruction. Duck may be the best to answer seeing he recently updated his full cert Australian qualifications.

    I never came across this 'tipping" concept/movement in any of the private instruction in USA, Canada, NZ or Australia I received. I know a reasonable amount about the system (PMTS) the video's instructor has documented and teaches although, I'm not an instructor and only ski a few weeks a year. This tipping of the inside ski to initiate a turn and the continuous focus on tipping it to tighten the turn radius, is the first movement/skill to learn in the PMTS system and is emphasised continuously right up to the expert level.

    I don't want to turn this into an "Epic" flaming type thread. I'm just very curious about what's being taught.

    On Youtube the only other reference I've seen for the inside foot tipping concept is on this video below of the Korean demo team at Interski, made by Aussie instructor Paul Lorenz. Watch commentary @ 2.20. This basically aligns with what is being described in the two videos above. The difference is the Koreans are demonstrating as expert Demo Team members and one could conclude they are simply using an expert's tricky advanced movement. What the first two video's show is a system of teaching that takes that "expert" tipping movement of the inside ski and uses it as part of the foundations of a whole teaching system.

    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014

    absentskier Part of the Furniture Season Pass Gold

    I don't know what is being taught by main stream ski schools, but I do know that Diana Rogers (Harb's partner) is the most fluid skier I have ever had the pleasure of skiing with.
    :thumbs: Hacski likes this.

    Annabuzzy Addicted Member Season Pass Gold

    I've certainly seen it taught. And I've seen it not taught. I'm not sure about the benefit of lifting and tipping the inside ski though (as opposed to just tipping it and engaging the ski edge. Maybe it helps skiers struggling to turn both skis in unison.

    One thing I need to watch for when I'm consciously working the inside ski is I can get too much on to it, sort of tipping to the inside.

    Different things work for different skiers at different times in their development.
    :thumbs: dawooduck likes this.

    CarveMan Moderator Season Pass Gold

    As an instructor, the more I taught and learned about skiing, the more I focused on balance.

    This was strongly influenced by Phil and Steve Mahre - I coached their program which is a 3 or 5 day curriculum that solely works on balance. The improvements in the participants were immense throughout the program as their other skills were being hindered by poor balance.

    Until you know where the middle of your foot is and the middle of your ski, there's no point working on anything else.

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    That must have been amazing to work with legends of the sport!! If there would be anyone who would know the importance of balance it would be downhill racers.

    Multiply days just on balance, do they start with boot alignment? I know before shimming/sole planning my balance was impeded.

    Is it one footed focused or is it a mix of both feet?

    Did they ever post any youtube stuff re their camps and balance drills perhaps?

    Just on the inside ski tipping, any thoughts? Do you see merit in focusing on what the inside foot is doing to create a turn? The Koreans seem to have discovered it too.

    I remember when I first tried it I was pretty amazed at how it worked so easily. That's why I've always wondered why the mainstream teaching hasn't incorporated it. Is it because when shaped skis came out and the stance width went wider, tipping the inside ski with a wide stance didn't make any sense? i.e. because the wider the stance the harder it is to do the tipping movement. So inevitably ski instruction had to go down a different path of turning the feet/legs and pressure managing the skis.

    CarveMan Moderator Season Pass Gold

    No focus on alignment, just working on the three planes of balance, and lots of one footed work on the side/side plane. Remember these guys are the ones that popularized the White Pass Turn drill.

    The curriculum was a series of exercises to over emphasize the various movements in the three planes of balance, and during the phases of the turn. They then tied it to how it made the ski perform and how it made your body feel.

    The exercises were designed to take you right out of your comfort zone & help you understand the importance of balance.

    The interesting part was the huge amount of repeat attendees despite the fact the curriculum is identical for each camp.
    :thumbs: dawooduck likes this.

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    I couldn't tell you exactly what the book learned skills progression is currently but any decent inquisitive instructor should be aware of the various skill emphasis points of various "methodology".

    I have studied the HH stuff and played with the word based skill emphasis of the "phantom move" and included it in my skills bag.

    IMHE, terrain choice is the most important facet of each "skills methodology". Terrain both enables and defines the effectiveness of what is being taught.

    Active tipping of the inside ski has been part of the equation for a very long time.

    IMHO it's the wordage that creates the perceived differences between methodologies, not the application.

    What CM said but also what ALE said.

    I cringe when I hear terminology used with little understanding of the whole picture of what is trying to be achieved or as a panacea for all improvement.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014

    CarveMan Moderator Season Pass Gold

    I'm personally not that interested in the HH methodology as my current interest is solely in skiing off-piste.

    I find rollerblading on groomed runs on shaped skis extraordinarily tedious.
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    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    When we look at Astro doing his favourite thing (weidlin bro) and then attempting something completely different (GS turns) we see a skier with excellent central balance easily making a affective mechanical change. Ya cannot do that without excellent central balance skills.
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    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    I am on a quest to scarve and smear in the trees on equipment designed for this purpose.

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    Free skiing with hippo this year was fun. A good skier with small unique "problems" holding him back and as far as I can tell no paid instruction had pinpointed the key issue. Top bloke as well.

    Tipping the inside ski was not the key focus point and to emphasize that skill wouldn't have helped one bit.

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    I concour

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    I had a chat with Ron Lemaster in Colorado about tipping the inside ski and the conversation flowed to be about "intent of the skier" and how "the moves" enabled the intent.
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    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    You mean you are falling to the inside and weighting it more than you'd like?

    This works in with CM's balance theme. For me it's about balancing over the outside ski and being able to pretty much lift the inside ski that is also tipping at any time throughtout a turn. That's a good test of balance. Garlands are the go to drill. When I say lift, I'm really just talking about lifting the tail a bit, the tip of the ski is still on the snow. Strong counterbalance (angulation) is the complementary movement of the upper body. If I don't have that I won't have outside ski balance. HH has a term for falling inside, "hip dumping". I've been guilty of it and spent many days fixing it.

    CarveMan Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Hip dumping is a result of people who are obsessed with big angles but dont understand the relationship between the various forces. Invariably they're just skiing on their inside ski.

    White Pass Turns are a good exercise for this as it will highlight if you're falling inside.

    CarveMan Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Actually ignore that. White Pass Turn is the opposite of what I'm talking about. Has been a while and I'm rusty!!

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    My initial thoughts are that most of the skiing population struggles to make a half decent turn. That follows because most don't take lessons and it's a very difficult sport to be very good at. So intent for them and enabling it should be a pretty narrow field and primarily about understanding a basic few movements from perhaps when they spasmodically do take lessons.

    Put aside the fact HH is the messenger and some don't appreciate his brashness, this "tipping" seems to be a really easy one to understand and one that, as we see with the Korean video, can be a focus at the elite level. HH's PMTS system certainly thinks it is and has become pretty successful doing so. He's certainly been swimming against the tide though. I just think it would be a great take away from every mainstream lesson program. Call it the single most important move, because that's what it is in the PMTS system. But would the problem be it would be up against the mainstream's steering of the legs concept? For an instructor is steering /twisting easy to understand and teach and do? I find it nebulous but that's just thick me. Does it though induce a bit of upper body rotary to go with the twisting, at which point I assume pivot slips tackle the problem? What if the problem didn't exist because the student was tipping not twisting, would that be a good thing? The focus then can stay on learning balance whilst tipping. As CM says balance is of first and foremost importance.
    Tipping is such a subtle movement which results in such a significant outcome I'm at a loss to understand why steering/twisting is preferable.

    Actually this video is probably even clearer as to how simply and effective tipping is to create a turn.

    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    That was part of my problem, wanting big angles. Not such a problem if you have a wide stance you get some default support on the inside ski but a narrower stance, big angles and leaning over with little or no counterbalance gets you another tag as I did on my first PMTS lesson. A "banker".
    Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture Season Pass Gold

    The Korean's are using a similar movement to Harb, but their goal is to get to a different balance point than Harb seems to teach. The Koreans ski in a more stacked (inclined) and square (opposite of counter rotated, or as Harb sayscounter balanced or CB). They are using inside ski tipping to move their upper body quickly across their skis to form a new stacked stance which allows them to withstand the forces their style of skiing creates.

    This is the sort of skiing they do in their technical competitions mentioned in Paul's Video.

    As an aside I really like Paul's skiing.

    CarveMan Moderator Season Pass Gold

    I'm not mad on Paul's skiing - looks like a solution to a problem nobody has.

    But that's also due to my overall philosophy on skiing - searching for a final form on groomers isn't a goal of mine. Groomers should be used to refine movements that are going to allow you to dominate a race course or bump run or rip a big mountain face.

    Whe I watch Paul's skiing I can't really see which lofty goal it would lead towards apart from looking pretty and dynamic on shaped skis on a groomed run.

    His carved short turns that I see on so many vids wouldn't translate well to an SL course IMO.

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    Looks a lot like a break dancing comp with everyone trying to out muscle each other.

    Edge, rebound, steer, edge, rebound, steer .... with the thing that holds the whole lot together being who can handle the rebound the smoothest.

    The only think that has changed over the years is the mix of feedback, control and feed in.

    I like to watch a skier flow with the terrain off piste and on.
    Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture Season Pass Gold

    Fair enough, everyone has different tastes. I like the power and dynamic nature of Paul's skiing. To keep the thread on topic I don't like HH's weak core. He looks like he is riding the skis rather than driving them.

    Paul would certainly suck in a SL without a cross block ;)

    Annabuzzy Addicted Member Season Pass Gold

    Wasn't HH a PSIA demo team member or some such? He can't be too bad! Having said that purely from an aesthetic perspective I wouldn't be using his body positions as my model.

    It's fair to say is it not ski instruction gurus there isn't one technique, but a number that you use depending on skill, terrain, snow and mood? That to me seems to be an issue with this lifting tipping caper - it's purely a groomed snow technique.

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    There was a guy called Joel Munn teaching like those Koreans back in the 80s. The goal was the slowest speed parallel turn with just core timing + feet tipping to steer (the skis where pretty straight back then) to form the turn shape. Twas interesting fun.

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    In reply to annabuzzy ... perhaps ... I once liked to play with technique outside of it's preferred snow condition just to see whats what. Pure form is pure form. Sometimes I ponder what the intent of marketing pure form as a holistic approach to varied intent, snow and terrain.

    CarveMan Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joel Munn was my boss for a couple of seasons. Funny guy!

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    Harb will say he takes his same basic PMTS technique to most parts of the mountain both on and off piste. That's doesn't mean he's lifting the inside ski, it's a simple lightening. At the age of 62 and with dodgy knees Harb's unlikely to be wanting to ski some more riskier pitches but I have zero doubt about his ability.


    absentskier Part of the Furniture Season Pass Gold

    Most people's criticism of Harb is not about his skiing, which is clearly excellent.

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    Yep I guess that's also partly what it comes down to for many keen skiers looking for improvement, aesthetics. HH has capitalised on that by having the documented system to promote his ski movements. That said there is variation within it, it's not just one standard release and engage movement. Timing of and the weighting can change depending on the terrain.

    But I guess the original post was to flush out some opinions from the most experienced instructors and others here about the basic tipping movements of the feet to create a turn concept. Also whether the mainstream ski teaching is missing an opportunity to improve on the leg steering/foot twisting/pressuring methods....."put inside ski tipping in the skills bag and move along" to paraphrase seems to be the consensus so far.

    I'm in Steamboat next week and some friends teenage kids are in ski school for the first 4 days. It will be the first time in many years I'll be able to get some feed back as to what's being taught. I'd say it would be a pretty safe bet tipping wont get much of a mention.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014

    absentskier Part of the Furniture Season Pass Gold

    Tipping is unlikely to get a mention.

    tbnext Dedicated Member

    In so many ways this is me, a good skier with a fundamental flaw that's almost impossible to overcome, wish I could

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    Most people don't really know what the flaw is, so your ahead there. Most just think they need a shite more ski days to get off the plateau. Partly true but doing the same thing will bring the same muscle memory results.

    Given there is no "Ski Help" section ya may as well throw up some video one day and take your chances. You could resurrect this thread when the video's at hand and hide it in here. These How To Ski threads only pop up once every few years. That's a good thing. The good Duck and others might be willing. You know it will be good secularist advice. Chances are it wouldn't be that type from me, for that reason I wouldn't be offering any.

    Or if in Sydney maybe get along to the new indoor centre in a couple of weeks when it opens.

    Or try the myriad of opinions on Epic Ski Forum's advice line where you'll be convinced you were totally wrong with your self diagnoses.

    Good thing is none of which will cost you any money. The indoor guys were at one stage even willing to give a free session to forumites.

    Or buy some traditionally based How To Ski books or DVDs

    Or get radical and look into PMTS, which initially won't cost a lot with books etc but could eventually entice the odd expensive USA or Austrian ski camp trip.

    Or buy more on snow ski lessons, which should in theory be the answer. But you do mention "impossible to overcome" so maybe you're gun shy of the ski school desk. Ask CM for a good Victorian instructor. Little Tiger I think knows some in NSW. Sure to be some good ones.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014

    Annabuzzy Addicted Member Season Pass Gold

    What's this new Sydney indoor area of which you speak?

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    IMHO, the primary issue with ski instruction is that the vast majority of those delivering it are "rote learned interns".

    Tipping the ski has always been part of the teaching syllabus. HH starts his syllabus from a parallel position in a perfect terrain situation. Mostly the rest start with a wedge in non perfect terrain situation.

    HH only allows "professionals" to teach beginners and the rest use anyone who has memorized a series of beginner exercises to teach beginners.

    On that note, the whole business has a "unique problem they struggle to fix".

    IMHO, most skiers are pretty confused as too the mechanics of a turn and this confusion stems from the mishmash of badly expressed phraseology delivered by interns and in HH case, fanatics.

    ALE, I spent two seasons skiing with a HH "disciple" and we chewed the fat on the whole subject to the stage of laying down 4 lots of national ski manuals alongside the HH stuff. Mad fun with beer, the politics of wordage where profound and the Yanks are the kings of product aligned wordage.

    The summary was "shut up n ski". We remain good friends with compatible madness and a love of the nuance.

    Happy skiing
    Happy life.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    I ponder, if Ski Instruction wants to improve maybe the learned and very skilled certification team should rove the mountain and ask random people to explain what it is they are trying to do when turning.

    The replies are fascinating in their variety.

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    Did he ever mention his Guthega seasons? As a trainer I found his input fascinating and simple in it's breakdown of the complexity of the basic movements. Nice bloke, interesting skier mind not constrained by manuals or break dancing for your peers.

    He was a free skier by pure definition.

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    Deconstruction, reconstruction .... dedication. It's hard for recreational skiers to fix up the little things when ski holidays are few and the primary goal is fun and relaxation.

    Annabuzzy Addicted Member Season Pass Gold

    Thanks for that. I'll be looking into it - at least one session for me.

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    Agree, if you don't have some nice flattish terrain starting without a snow plough would be tough. Perisher's beginner area comes to mind.

    Funny about Paul, he fell out with Harald over I have no idea what and I'm not interested in why. He's still an avid advocate and he's back on Harb's forum. I can see why you and he would have been great mates. Sorta like two peas in a pod. Same cool dude outlook on life..........and on politics!

    As for "wordage" it's what is always said when a comparison is discussed and some of that is no doubt true. But some of the differences and emphasis are pretty stark. PSIA APSI, BASI and all the rest have extension releases as the No 1 type of release. PMTS will never ever teach it, for lots of reasons. That's a pretty big fundamental difference. Now I know those same associations all teach a retraction releases but it comes in a long way down the track. It's for situational use, primarily as an absorption technique for bumps and undulated terrain initially. The extension release may not be severe by degree of movement for many mainstream experts but it's still opposite to a flex to release and has consequences for many skiers with how early an edge can be established after transition. For the average punter it means a late edge set. Conversely some PMTS students, if they don't pull the feet back to stay centrally balanced, will flex to release and end up being in the back seat.

    My example in the OP of tipping to create a turn may be amongst the teaching syllabus somewhere but it's not taught by the vast vast majority of mainstream classes. I always knew that. Did you ever teach it at Vail? It's a totally different movement to steering and twisting. Maybe I just don't understand what steering actually means. I think the words used in PMTS are far clearer in meaning, "steering" and "tipping" being a good comparison IMO.

    Good or bad I know PMTS students look different. Probably a narrower stance for the average student (depending if you were or weren't taught to ski during the wide ski fad) and no up and down are the most obvious.

    APSI is clearly teaches extension releases as a primary movement.

    A PMTS similar turn with flex to release.

    But again, the point of the thread was really just to get an understanding about the use of or opinions of the "Tipping" movement, because until Harb put up a specific inside ski tipping video 18 months ago there was no access for those that haven't bought books/videos.

    It's good getting your views in particular Duck given your links with the Beaver PMTS lad.

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    Here was your mates new year message on the PMTS forum. It's a good one.

    Re: Holiday Message

    [​IMG] by bowlhiker » Tue Dec 31, 2013 8:45 am
    For years I thought if I just had enough money, lived in the right place, could put the right combination of booze and drugs together, had the right things, made the right turns, hung out with the right people, wore the right clothes, drove the right car, etcetera, I'd be happy. Then, I'd have it all. Then, I'd be what I dreamed about as a kid. You see, I never wanted my life -- I wanted everyone else's. Or, I was "waiting to be happy".

    It started when I put down the drugs and the booze. Then it got worse -- because I didn't know how to live any other way. Then it started to get better -- slowly. About 2 years ago, I quit waiting to be happy. I started practicing (sounds crazy. but for me, practicing to be happy -- takes practice) to be happy. Some days were better than others. But what I get now, is that my happiness isn't based on some event in the future. For example I get excited about powder days. But if I wake up and it didn't snow, I'm going skiing anyway. I just look around, feel the moment. If I just stay in the moment, realize that with all its sham and drudgery it's still a beautiful world, things just go better for me.

    For me, what is happiness? I don't know. I don't want to predict it. I'd rather just feel each moment. But I know I don't want to judge. If I die right now, then that's how it's supposed to be. If I can realize that everything is exactly the way it's supposed to be, then I don't have to think or wonder. I can

    It doesn't always go as planned. The other day at Aspen (jeezus, I really have to practice this stuff at Aspen -- those people there!), this woman gets on the chair with me and starts bitching about my headphones. Says "they're dangerous", because if she was coming up behind me I couldn't hear her. I then proceeded to tell her "Lady, there's two things wrong with what you just said. One, I'm not going to be skiing anywhere near you are. Two, you totally don't get that it's you whose responsible for what's in front of you". Then I threw in some more salty language.

    But by the end of the chair lift ride, I realized I was being a dick. I didn't consider her fears. It was all about me -- the fabulous me. Then I told her I was sorry I popped off. By then end of chair lift I told her "If I wasn't married, I'd ask you for a date -- and you'd be crazy to say yes". She then laughed and we parted ways friendly.

    So as part of this, I need to realize the considerations of others. I need to get that Republicans have their concerns, too. So if I make the conversation about them, listen to their concerns, it just goes better. There doesn't have to be agreement. It becomes about a conversation between two people. It's not making me right or them wrong.

    In May I went to the Stones Concert at the Staples Center. There were protestors out in front who were similar to the Westboro crowd. Hate signs with vulgar names, saying anyone who goes to a Stones concert of the vulgar names on their signs. Instead of yelling at them, I had a conversation with one of them. First he started yelling at me. But when he got that I was listening to his concerns, the conversation changed. He calmed down, quit yelling at me. By the end of the conversation he was inviting me to pray with him. I politely declined. We shook hands, I went inside and saw the Glimmer Twins.

    I just tried to be there with him and his concerns. I put aside right and wrong, his judgment and perceived morality. I was just there with him. I think he got that.

    I was happy about how I handled the conversation.

    I've been mad at Harald for years. But I never once considered where he's at. I can line up all kinds of things to stand in the way of my "Happiness". I can bitch about Republicans and Democrats, come up with all kinds of complaints about the world around me. But when I put them all aside, all the sudden there's space. I see things as being perfect.

    Happy New Year.

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    I saw that in my friend back in his really bitchin days. The depth and the interest and the life lived for real coupled with an intelligent questioning mind and a real passion for learning and cutting through all the bullshit. Those traits remain the cornerstone of our relationship. Two ordinary blokes with a lot of life commonality and the acceptance of our own choices and the affects on our own lives.

    I have been down the road of "online technical discussion" and IMHE it is a dead end full of arguing asshats with strange obsessive allegiances to doctrines who are mostly all trying to up sell their "expertise" and who continually ignore the big picture in favour of little snippets of wordage. Its mostly all politically inspired bullshit .... IMHO.

    These days I share my knowledge on the hill with the few that show a genuine interest and usually only if asked directly. If tipping is the answer then tipping is offered. I think the wedge causes as much angst as it solves, both technically and on a skier emotion (fear and flow) level and it would be wonderful if everyone could attend a perfect scenario "skiing school" before actually going skiing and had the balance and movement skills to "just tip".

    To me it is the skiing shared that is important not the the published technical wordage online closed audience fapping.

    Happy skiing
    Happy life

    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
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    CarveMan Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Times a million.

    Hacski Guest

    An amazing person.

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    And there I was Duck going to ask Ian for an Instruction & Tips section. ;)

    You and CM were even going to be moderators. :out:

    dawooduck Pool Room Season Pass Gold

    Its a nice thought but .... let the new breed breath their fresh ideas into the skier space IMHO

    A.L.E Dedicated Member

    Was skiing with her a few years ago and a lady friend asked about Diana's jacket and how nice it was. It had no manufacturer label on it. That was because she had cut and sewn it together herself!
    Paul Kulas

    Paul Kulas Active Member

    Howdy All,

    Part 1.

    My good friend dawooduck sent me a thread and I thought I'd chime in.

    On Harb. No one knows more about this than I do.

    You guys got to get over it. It's everywhere now. In fact in just 16 years, Harald is more popular than the PSIA.

    I sent an email to, asking them what are the most popular books in downhill skiing today, in the past 30 days, 90 days, 6 months, 1 year and overall.

    Their reply:
    I understand from your correspondence that you intend to know about the best selling books on "Downhill Skiing".

    I would like to inform you that there is no way for us to find out which books of this topic have been the best sellers in the time frames that you have mentioned. As a workaround what I can suggest you is to do a search on using the keywords such as "Downhill Skiing", and other keywords you find appropriate. Our search functionality automatically displays the largest selling and most popular products first and this goes descending down the list. This way you will know which ones are the top selling ones based on where they show up on the search results.

    Amazon’s reply says that if you search on a key word, they automatically list “the largest selling and most popular products first”.

    I started my search on the home page -- no category or filter set. I searched “ski instruction”. Lito’s book, “Breakthrough on Skis”, which prominently features Harald, came up #1.

    I then changed my search on Amazon to “Books”. Which means any book sold on There’s almost 4 million books listed on

    I searched for “ski instruction”.
    - Harald’s book, “Ski Flex” comes up #11.
    - Lito’s book (Harald is descendant of Lito -- alternative ski instruction), “Breakthrough on Skis” is #10.
    - Harald’s book, “Essentials of Skiing” is # 14.

    I then changed the search to Books\Winter Sports\Skiing\Downhill Skiing
    I searched “ski instruction”.
    - Harald’s book “Ski Flex” comes up # 6.
    - Harald’s book “Essentials of Skiing” comes up # 8.

    Using the same filter, I searched “ski training”.
    - Harald’s book “Ski Flex” is # 3.
    - Lito’s “Breakthrough on Skiing” book is # 4. Again, which prominently features Harald.
    - Harald’s book “Essentials of Skiing” is # 17”.

    Same filter, I searched “Harald Harb”.
    - Harald’s books take up the first two pages.
    - “Ski the Whole Mountain” by Eric Deslauriers is the other book on page 2. Eric D. is on record of speaking very highly of Harald and what he teaches.

    Same filter, I searched “learn to ski”.
    - Lito’s “Breakthrough on Skiing” book is # 2.
    - Harald’s book “Ski Flex” is # 6.
    - Harald’s first book, “Anyone can be an Expert Skier” is # 13.

    I should note that in no search, did any PSIA branded book list before Harald or Lito.

    Harald's books, or books connected to Harald, dominate.

    Then I went to Google, the #1 search engine. I Googled “ski instruction”. As far as I know, Harald has just two full time employees and does not have a webmaster. I doubt he spends money each month on SEO - Search Engine Optimization.

    With just two employees and no webmaster, Harald’s website is listed at the top of Page 3 on Google, when search = “ski instruction”.

    Harald’s videos on YouTube, as of 1.8.14, had 1,272,685 views.

    As a comparison, searches on YouTube for “psia” videos had 468,078 views. Note this total includes snowboarding, backcountry, and adaptive skiing. On the website, this link,, PSIA’s membership is 31,500 members. It’s not unreasonable to assume that most of the YouTube views came from members, not, consumers of ski instruction.

    Ski instructors everywhere are teaching his stuff (and yes, it is his. Because HH was the first anywhere to talk about what he does -- inside foot tipping). This doesn't mean he owns it. All it means, is he was first. He was.

    I talk to ski instructors all the time at Vail and Aspen who teach his stuff. I posted on PMTS about this. But look at it this way:

    If there's 200 ski instructors in the USA (there's way more than that) that teach PMTS to their classes once a week and each class is 7 skiers, that's 1400 skiers a week who come into contact with PMTS. If the ski instructors are full-time, that's 1400 (assuming a new class each day) skiers a day coming into contact with PMTS. Play around with the numbers, you can't deny what's happened.

    And they said he'd fail. They said it was wrong, it'd never work.

    Harald and I stood toe to toe, a couple of times. One time I was so toasted, I really embarrassed him. Hell I'm lucky he never punched me.

    I come to love the man. Why?

    Because he's courageous and he has integrity. He told the man (you folks have no idea what an iron fist the PSIA rules with) to F off. He forged his own way. Against all odds and then some, he made it. Not only did he make it, he won. They had planes, rocket launchers, grenades, blockades, spies, heavy artillery. Harald had a two cents and a pocket knife. He won. God bless him.

    Because of Harald, skiers everywhere get free ski lessons (something Harald and I talked about in 1999 in his kitchen). There is no body of work that even comes remotely close to what HH has published for all to learn from on YouTube. Free. It's heroic what the man has done and it's time everyone on the planet puts down their petty arguments against him and give the man his due.

    Harald loves his customers. Show me another skier of his prominence that answers questions for free, daily, on a website? Show me one! That's a man with integrity.

    And he's not done yet.

    Because of Harald, there's another choice for ski instruction. How on earth can that be bad? How on earth can people complain about someone like this? Well, it's perfect. People complain, that's life. It's exactly how it should be.

    In all other areas of life we cheer innovation. But in ski instruction, someone comes along and breaks the mold and people complain? Say what?

    Look at all that's happened because of Harald, or tied to Harald:
    1. John Clendenin's camps in Aspen
    2. Peter Keelty's site
    3. Eric DeLauriers books
    4. Head skis. I was there. Harald was talking about Head before they were. Now, I'm not suggesting Head owes Harald a check. But the facts speak for themselves. Harald was talking Head skis long before anyone was.
    5. "Harald envy" effect. Think about how many ski industry entrepreneurs there are out there that have seen what Harald has done and been inspired by him. They're planning something too. Because of Harald.

    I ski with young guys. One guy, who absolutely dominates at the Beav, is now on Head skis. Said goodbye to his banana skis. Other young guys are watching. Another young friend is on Head boots --- the Raptor 130, same as mine.

    On inside foot tipping. Back when I was SCSA on epic, I told everyone that there was no other way to learn. On every post, I was out of my mind high. One time I got so drunk skiing, I tumbled all the way down Deception at Highlands -- just about bought it. I showed up to the Gatherings on LSD.

    Yes, a skier can learn to go fast using the "bag of tricks" plan. You know, a little from here, a little from there. But you know what? We're not talking about that. We're talking about reaching a higher level of turn and skiing. Harald's system is the only system out there. There is no other.

    Athletes have a plan. They have a training regimen. They chart their course, they do drills. PMTS follows the same idea. Show me another system that lays it all out like Harb's. There isn't one. This is not to say PMTS is the best. What I meant back then, in between taking LSD and what not, and what I'm here to say now, is that not it's not about the "best". It's about having a system that prepares a skier to ski from zero to the most challenging terrain out there and gives them a plan (books, DVD's, website, phone calls, support system) to get there. Not just a plan, but checks and balances. There is no other.

    Yes, there is surely one or three skiers out there who could buy 20 books on Amazon, take a little from this and a little from that and get there. There's also people who smoke and drink their whole lives and live till 100! Sure, there's always exceptions. Bode won ski races on strength. But Mikaela Shifflin followed a plan. So do most great skiers and athletes.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
    Paul Kulas

    Paul Kulas Active Member

    Part 2

    When I came back to skiing in 1997, I sought out a system. I found it. Could I have got there another way? I don't know. But that's not the discussion. I wanted to bet on the numbers and the numbers say follow a system.

    All those people on epic, some of whom are higher ups in PSIA, and maybe some here, who said:
    PMTS is limiting
    PMTS doesn't lead to high level skiing
    PMTS won't make it
    blah, bla, blah.

    They were all wrong. Have one of them, had the guts and humility to say so? No. Show me a post on epic where someone says they were wrong. This isn't about morality or judgment, that's all nowhere. All it does is lead a man to anger. It's about humility and having integrity. If those people were half of what HH is, they'd step up and say "we were wrong".

    I was there. I was on epic in 2000. Look. I was toasted, but I remember it like it was yesterday. You have no idea, how much work it's taken me to be with all this.

    But the most famous one is the "Harald teaches a skier to be boot locked". Really? Watch this video of me the other day going REALLY slow. I think there's plenty of space between my legs. I'm "Paul skiing slow".

    Not one transition missed. Perfect tracks. Equidistant shafts. Snowboarders all around me. Music cranked up to 10. But no drugs or booze. :)

    To this day, all I think about is PMTS training. I'm tipping, not steering. Does steering work? Sure it does. But for me, and God knows how many others, the queue is inside foot tipping. And of course, balance.

    On My gosh, what an injustice! Chris Jarnot is my neighbor. I'm going to talk to him. is the number 1 most visited ski site on the planet. But skiers are being denied PMTS there. Get that you can't even bring up "Harald" "PMTS", "Harb", "Harb Ski Systems". They've even blacklisted "SCSA".

    From’s About Page, here:

    In the first sentence it reads, “, the online home for dedicated skiers, is the leading Internet resource for ski information and community discussion”.

    The 3rd sentence of the 2nd paragraph states:

    Our diverse community makes EpicSki the discerning skier’s complete source of insider information about the sport”.

    When I read “the leading internet resource for ski information and community discussion”, I read that to include ski instruction, and the discussion of ski instruction. In fact a very popular forum on is the Ski Instruction & Coaching forum, here:

    On the same About page promotes itself as, “the discerning skier’s complete source of insider information about the sport”. When I read “complete source of insider information about the sport”, I read that to include where to find the most popular ski instruction and coaching system. has not allowed discussions of...what I wrote for at least a few years now. In fact I’ve been told of emails where members have mentioned PMTS and/or Harald Harb and been warned that if it happens again, that if the member makes any mention of either PMTS or Harald Harb, the member will be banned from the site. makes clear that it will not allow any discussion of Harald Harb or PMTS.

    Here is the link to’s posting guidelines:

    See section 2. “No Labeling”.“In general any labeling of individuals, skiing styles, or instruction as "PMTS", "TTS", "PSIA" or any other acronym or euphemism is not allowed”.

    But see these posts:

    Then do a search here, on “psia”:

    It lists 4681 Results.

    So despite its policy of “No Labeling”, epic allows posts with PSIA but it won’t allow posts with PMTS. Why is that? What a bunch of hullabaloo!

    Skiing is about freedom. Yet skiers are being denied knowledge. Who's zooming who?

    I type fast, there's a lot here. I'm not looking for agreement. But if you all look at what's here, I can't see how you'd come to any other conclusion than what I've said. Put aside your personal feelings about Harald. He's a person in the Universe. Just be with him. Let go of your discussions queue'd up for no other reason than to make you look good and him look bad. Let it go. Instead, get what's happened. Think about the beauty of it all.

    And if you come to conclusions I have, please put it out there.

    Get the beauty of this story that began 17 years ago. The wonder of it all. Yes, there's been wrongs. But the big picture, is the rights. People stood up for what they believe in, stuff happened. If you put aside your judgments, you can begin to share this with others. Give a friend a video of Harald. Call Harald and say hello. I'm sure he'd love to hear from you.

    Giving a man his due does not mean you have to be wrong. It's just about spreading good vibes. And lord knows we need more of that.

    Be cool.
    or just be.

    CarveMan Moderator Season Pass Gold

    And so it begins.


    Remember - skiing is just sliding down a mountain. So go find a big one.