Sequential Turning Clinic (BBB)

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by bawbawbel, May 27, 2017.

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Have you mastered the Level One White Out Turn?

  1. Tried and Satisfied. Ready for Level Two, please.

    66.7%
  2. Tried and Nearly Died. Not recommended.

    0 vote(s)
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  3. Sort of interested.

    33.3%
  4. Please stop trifling with my technique !

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  1. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    "you can rotate one half of your chest while the other side remains unmoved"
    This is also important/useful as an early (very early) inside anticipated movement the ensures that the inside (new outside) chest/shoulder is in a forward ready position so that transition can begin/proceed and complete without UB hindrance and moreover transition cannot begin and proceed without UB support, initiation, and position.

    It is no different with LB movement/turning, the UB position must allow LB transition to begin/proceed and complete without UB hindrance. So even with LB movement UB support, initiation, and position is critical.

    It is interesting how important UB chest position/support is, especially to transition and even the turn itself, yet it is never mentioned... interesting.
     
  2. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Your KL turn will fail unless you get it right.
    It is typical of recent instruction to describe dynamic anticipation as the most subtle of processes, derived from a still upper body, no less. Capture it or it is gone.
    " The traverse is the death of dynamic-anticipation, and this is the reason that most skiers never make it to being a truly advanced skier. The problem arises at the end of the turn, the pressure has built up under your edges and at this point tremendous energy is stored in the coil of your upper body. Your shoulders are facing down the hill and your skis are across the hill (like a coil spring). If we simply relax and stand up that energy is lost, it is really only available for a fraction of a second and if we miss it is lost forever. "
    RUBBISH !! Racers are now tuning their bodies to produce sequential pulses as required anywhere in their turns. The Old School cannot see it, understand it, or emulate it because it is from the forbidden zone.
     
  3. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Nope, rubbish, not true... it just makes skiing dramatically easier and the timing is preturn, pretransition, end turn, or anticipating the next turn (whichever way you want to say it) ... ie. step1, and part of the sequential process which itself is variable/dynamic, but still sequential, depending on the snow, terrain, and conditions.

    sequential pulses/Old School/forbidden zone ... other new names to confuse which is interesting, typical, and ensures things remain unnecessarily complex and confusing. Glad I am away from all that jargon.

    Sounds funny ... I have just sequentially pulsed myself down that slope and "oh what a pulse feeling that was". I now feel highly relieved within myself. Just as well I got it right otherwise I would feel only partially relieved.

    Are you planning to change the Thread Title to...
    "Sequentially Pulse yourself down the Slope and feel relieved doing it" or
    "A new way to feel relieved - Sequentially Pulse yourself down the Slope".
     
    #153 KL., Jul 16, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2017
  4. MickM

    MickM Dedicated Member
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    My head hurts :emoji_confused:
     
  5. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    That may be because my explanation was lost in the New Internet. Where I also attempted to tell KL that I did not consider his turn "Old School".
    We will avoid treading on bunions at all cost.
    However, we need to also keep the thread intact at all costs, as I detect an acceptance amongst posters that "Shoulders Before Skis" should be a legitimate and lawful situation at every stage of ski instruction.
     
  6. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    It is only a small step from "upper body into the right position for the new turn" to "upper body movement reflected into the new turn", and every officious official must eventually admit it.

     
    KL. likes this.
  7. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    He finally got the message after being Sent to Coventry. Here is his "acceptable" rethink :

    " What is old is new again comes to mind.
    The biggest thing that keeps being repeated is using the upper body to direct the lower body. In short the upper is the counter balance for the lower.
    I won't argue that it follows or leads, just that it provides a force point, how you achieve that is your choice."

    Nobody understands that, and it is sufficiently obtuse to get him back into the self congratulatory crew.
     
  8. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Yes, step1... timing is preturn, pretransition, end turn, or anticipating the next turn (whichever way you want to say it)
     
  9. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Real Anticipation (see the definition mandatory for this thread, which has an extremely high standard of precise communication), or Static Anticipation as explained by Lord Brignone above ?
    Static Anticipation would work just as well from a traverse as a linked turn.
    Lord Brignone cannot see the obvious incongruity in accepting the fleeting dynamic anticipation from a "still upper body", but ignoring it elsewhere.
     
  10. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    For LB skiers... to think that you can keep the UB still over bumps, drops, and varying snow conditions all of the time is nonsense and even delusional.

    From time to time, and for intermediate skiers (all of the time), step1 is required, ie bring the outside chest into a "forward ready" position so that the transition for the next turn can/will happen. I view this as anticipation for the next turn which always needs to happen regardless of your skiing technique, otherwise your skis are always fighting with your UB. Perhaps the only time this does not need to happen is if both skis are in the air.

    Always, UB leads LB, ie your Skis, unless and perhaps, both skis are in the air.
     
    #160 KL., Jul 18, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  11. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Especially in the pow, where sidecut is redundant. It will come, it will come....
     
    KL. likes this.
  12. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Not getting through to teenagers !
    A factory of flapping arms.
    I now show snowboard stuff to emphasize that the shoulders rotate only WITH the skis during the turn. Beginners must rotate forward BEFORE the turn and then LOCK THE CORE. Sequential, sequential, sequential. Sheesh !
     
    #162 bawbawbel, Jul 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2017
  13. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Better to teach them, from the beginning and in a coordinated manner, good hand/forearm/arm rotation/movement. It is visual with good feeling. Just a suggestion...
     
  14. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    You are blind, when he stops trying to pole plant, if you cannot see the following. He skis much better when he stops trying to pole plant. The shoulders & UB follow the hand/forearm/arm rotation/movement...
    • turning right...
    • place the right outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position then
    • begin moving the new outside right hand and the inside left hand from the right side to the left side of the body where the outside/right forearm/wrist/hand rises then rotates inwardly downward and the new inside forearm/wrist/hand rotates outwardly/reverses (ie. right hand follows (tends to follow) left hand)... this is done simultaneously!
    • the inside/left outward rotational forearm/hand movement controls the outside/right rotational movement and forces a Rhythmical/Smooth Outside Rotational Flow.
    • turning left... then vice versa for the left turn... and so on!
    • The more the outside chest/shoulder/arm is opened the more the skis are driven down the fall line but the down side is the harder it is to maintain a Rhythmic/Smooth Rotational Flow because the hands become further and further apart at the finish/beginning of each turn!

    This is what I have previously mentioned...

     
    #164 KL., Jul 20, 2017 at 8:50 AM
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017 at 12:46 PM
  15. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Chinese copy of yr style already exist, or does it? It does emphasize the SPEED of anticipation being a very important factor.
     
  16. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    No, with the chinese style the new inside arm is leading the new outside arm movement and I would suggest that is why the SPEED of anticipation is a very important because the new outside needs to catchup to the new inside initiation/transition. I would suggest that this is inside/outside, not outside/inside. Do you like this style? Is what you teach?

    If the new outside initiates the transition and the new inside needs to rotate/follow outward in unison/simultaneously. Effectively the new inside hand/forearm/arm is initially getting out of the way, in a nice complementary way, then controlling the outside rotation/movement by preventing over rotation/movement. This creates/allows for excellent flow at fast speeds and even at very slow speeds. This is outside/inside. Timing is controlled by the new outside hand/forearm/arm initiation/transition through a hand/arm rise/forward movement then an inward rotation movement but it is even better/easier if the outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position. You can see the outside inward rotation because the outside elbow remains high while hand rotates inward and lower than the elbow. Anyway, this is not the chinese style, above, that you have suggested...

     
    #166 KL., Jul 21, 2017 at 12:53 PM
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017 at 1:48 PM
    bawbawbel likes this.
  17. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Let's see: 1000 view it, 900 forget it instantly, 20 understand it, 2 will try it while the snow falls. Progress !!
     
  18. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Snow falling ... I have SDS ... enjoy yourself :)
     
  19. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Preparation is important
    [​IMG]
     
  20. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Today's selection by BB (Bill Barker).
    Learning telemark is one way (bit drastic !) to get rid of your A framing.
    It involves getting rid of the things that hold your boots down.
    Some call them "training heels"
     
    #170 bawbawbel, Jul 23, 2017 at 10:10 AM
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017 at 10:34 AM
  21. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
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    Except that it is Japanese.

    Kotomi Ishizu is a Japanese demonstrator.
     
    Call_me_Ishmael likes this.
  22. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    He plays to the gallery and they obviously love him.
    I looked up the original documentor of the Skoarding style.
    He has a guiding show in NZ and is an instructor of instructors.
    Don't think that he taught Ligeti the pulsed sequential move, but he posted utube of Ligeti showering him with snow. Fame!
     
    #172 bawbawbel, Jul 23, 2017 at 10:24 PM
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017 at 10:34 PM
  23. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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  24. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    It must be accepted by the Old School that "pumping" is now used universally as a way to add extra energy (kinetic) from your muscles to the available vertical displacement (potential) energy being used up by snow friction.

    But it becomes too hard for them to explain how they can "release energy" from a loaded ski into the next turn while remaining centered on their skis. This "float" remains a mystery to them, while they accept it gladly.

    The most basic method relies on the fact that in a non-carved turn the tails of the skis are rotating faster than the tips. So a ski bounce will deflect you into a rotation in the opposite direction. It feels like an acceleration past gravity alone but there is none.
    The real deal is when a carve gets a sequential rotation combined with a body pump (extension involving the knees ).
    If you are coming out of the turn faster than going into it, that is what you are doing !
    Welcome to our rather exclusive club.
     
    #174 bawbawbel, Jul 25, 2017 at 11:34 AM
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017 at 11:45 AM