Sequential Turning Clinic (BBB)

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by bawbawbel, May 27, 2017.

?

Have you mastered the Level One White Out Turn?

  1. Tried and Satisfied. Ready for Level Two, please.

    66.7%
  2. Tried and Nearly Died. Not recommended.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Sort of interested.

    33.3%
  4. Please stop trifling with my technique !

    0 vote(s)
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  1. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    New Page
     
  2. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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  3. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    They say "Effective skiing is easy as 1-2...4 !" and they call it "counteraction"

    They could also call it "outside/inside ... 1,2,3,4" and it could have been Australian. At least they have the courage to consider it and do it.
     
    #103 KL., Jun 28, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2017
  4. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    What about INTERNATIONAL ? ( available DVD from that site is HARB ).
    How to make it viral ?
    Image the Perfect Family- Swedish furniture, Swedish car, personal Swedish instructor on 457 visa for the kids.
     
  5. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    If I was a "no win, no fee" lawman I would now be looking at a class action for all those Ozzies who have suffered permanently creaky knees from the local instruction progression.
    Foot based skiing often results in harsh interactions with unyielding snow surfaces.
    The clincher would be data about the number of akja rides per instructed skier/ ski day compared to Europe.
    Part of the settlement should involve free remedial instruction on Whole Body Skiing. :)
     
  6. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    But the immediate danger to mountain finances (the buck stops there) would be personal litigation from a skier who could demonstrate continuous instruction which at no stage included the new rotary wedge, which is the only effective self rescue method from conditions of total whiteout or fog.
    Otherwise it would be wise to close lifts BEFORE those conditions eventuated, a difficult procedure.
     
  7. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Oldschoolskier, you better get used to being a thread stopper.
    " What I will advise is think how a turn ends and how it starts. Strangely enough, there is a great overlap here which causes discussion and debate (sometimes friendly and sometimes not).
    Think of skiing as the upper body leading the lower body. Depending on application the upper may be as far ahead as a 1/3 of a turn."
    You were lucky not to have been banned "for causing trouble".
    Note the thread doing a quick left turn towards unrelated humour....
     
  8. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Congratulations to the Pugski People ! You are only one step away from reconciling the two armies engaged in the chicken and egg arguments of the Foot Wars. There really is a very basic difference in technique and this must be understood.
    To get to the core of this difference involves examining core interaction.

    Don in the second post of the initiation thread:
    " we can coordinate all of our movements to either create change or manage that change.
    In practice this means releasing the core prior to releasing our edge platform"

    Aha! An "All Body" skier will lock the core at that moment . Otherwise the classic Bob Barnes "Anticipation" can't work.
    [​IMG]
    WINDUP ! .................WAIT !......................SKIS TURN ! (by themselves, just about... )
    Bob didn't mean "release the core", he meant "lock the core to release the upper body rotation to the skis"
    Could it be that this one misunderstanding eventually resulted in half the world skiing like lame ducks ?
     
    #108 bawbawbel, Jul 2, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  9. Call_me_Ishmael

    Call_me_Ishmael Well-Known Member

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    Can you do another thread on walking?
    It's ridiculous that people think they can just slap on a pair of shoes ,head out the door and just because they're upright and making forward progress they think they're doing it right.
     
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  10. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Why confuse them/everybody... core is not critical/important, for outside/inside, if done (even close to) correctly... 1,2,3,4

    That might be essential for Barnes but not for outside/inside or even Bel (I hope!)
     
  11. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Your true colours come shining through.
    Surely not one more expert who considers the topic of this thread to be so obvious as to hardly warrant discussion. Yet even KL, a most introspective skier, disregards it.
    There are some readers who are still expressing confusion, even though our half page arguments have been clarified to one line jewels.
    Please add something useful to the thread. Are you a Digme or a conservative? When did UB rotation transfer become so obvious to you? Overseas instruction or skiing with the enlightened ?
     
  12. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Well, didn't you recently suggest that 4 different turn techniques may be needed? Without core control I bet that they all would fail.
    Barnes, as the last US national director to examine evolving technique to the level of Harb, insisted that all 5 types of rotation should be mastered and used as required. That one was recommended to get over the hump of a top turn.. He took that pic of Tog at Arapahoe Basin in 1981. It can now be found (if you look and understand) in many parts of effective racing and recreation turns.
    Rasie says the the term "anticipation" is outmoded and should not be used. It is true that some definitions of it do not even include UB (upper body) rotation.
    "Counteraction" and "Coiling" are very specific.
    Last chance to do some reading before the snow season becomes paramount..
     
    #112 bawbawbel, Jul 3, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  13. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    BBB, can you direct me to that post? At this time, I use outside/inside for all terrain and conditions. I was hoping that you were going to say that for Bel? Maybe outside/inside and Bel are different which is fine as there are many ways to turn the skis?

    BBB, it appears that it is critical for the Barnes method.
     
  14. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Your arm movements blend initiation with the necessary new inclination of the new turn. Is good.
    Inside/ Outside:
    "
    • turning right...
    • place the right outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position "
    Not different from " place your left inside chest/shoulder back in position to begin counteraction." Not appreciating this led to our initial conflict. Same, same. :)

    But not that many Ishmaels will even read that.

    Our job is like that of the Blues Brothers. Not to convert skiers to anybodies special technique, but to make them aware of what they are missing by becoming dedicated to pure femur rotation only as a goal.

    P.S. Do you like "preturning" as a compromise title ?
     
  15. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    That is an interesting way to word it and as you say it is the same or similar.

    This new/next outside forward ready anticipation/preparation for the next turn becomes less critical (although it is always critical because it allows the next turn to happen/transition) as your skiing becomes more rhythmical/flowical/flowing (or has more rhythm/flow) or I think you would like to say Bel like (or whole body). Though, it is easy to forget and when forgotten, depending on the snow conditions, your turn can become survival mode!

    BTW, this simple action, 'place the new/next outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position', helps the below the waist skiers, alot.

    hmm, not sure... doesn't sound quite right either. Let's keep thinking about it.
     
    #115 KL., Jul 4, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  16. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Something seem strange in that gif?
    You got it, the incredibly odd "still upper body" instruction mantra now extends to your kid's first day !!!
    They will never be allowed the freedom of "airplane turns" while in class.
    "Keep your arms still and follow the dragon"
    No wonder that they just want to ski with you...

    [​IMG]
     
  17. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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  18. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    'Step on the inside ski' effectively does 'place the new/next outside chest/shoulder in a forward ready position' where forward ready is effectively a 'controlled outside/inside rotational movement' and a very (even very, very) early beginning/start/transition/anticipation of the new/next turn.
     
    #118 KL., Jul 4, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  19. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    BBB, the correct/appropriate hand/forearm/arm movements can also ensure/encourage that the new/next outside chest/shoulder is in a forward ready position, without deliberate rotation being performed. The correct/appropriate hand/forearm/arm movements (hand follows hand in close proximity to each other) can be a more visual and natural method because the hands, and there motion, can be visibly seen by the skier while skiing.
     
  20. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    BawBawBel has no idea what it is talking about, so don't make the mistake of thinking you do.
     
  21. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Don't I, ok...
     
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  22. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    I meant that you can have no idea what BBB is saying because it doesn't know itself.
     
  23. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I get the feeling that you are both deliberately ignoring the elephant on the groom, each in his own way.
    I want a one liner from each of you.
    Your subject is as follows:
    How do YOU transfer energy to the new turn from the previous one, to make linking effective ?
    Remember, eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation
     
  24. absentskier

    absentskier Part of the Furniture
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    Ah yes, the elusive ability to describe and teach ski technique in clear and basic language. It doesn't matter how good your ideas are if your writing is inaccessible, unclear garbage.
     
  25. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    How do you?
     
  26. telecrag

    telecrag Part of the Furniture
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    I use magnets.
     
  27. Call_me_Ishmael

    Call_me_Ishmael Well-Known Member

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    Undervalued accessory
    I find it makes me do things I don't necessarily want to
    [​IMG]
     
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  28. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Using sequential movement patterns. Like the kids above.
    " many skiers adopt sequential movement patterns that to be blunt screw up their skiing." says an expert.
    " i am not sure that sequential movement patterns are even possible" says another.
    Experts should be supplied with large quantities of alcohol and drugs to help their lateral thinking, maybe.
     
  29. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    I see.

    Translation: If I keep talking, eventually I might start making sense. So far - no cigar.
     
  30. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    "A picture is better than a thousand words".
    I have posted 15,000 words on this subject but nobody rereads them.
    But why should they? In the early days I was just feeling my way forward.
    GIFs are good. Will make some more specific ones this season.
    I might post the fall line snowplough illustration from the book manuscripts.
    It really is a radical and effective move.
     
    #130 bawbawbel, Jul 5, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  31. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Picture worth a tousand werds !
    [​IMG]
     
  32. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    What's a werd. And why are they so cheap?
     
  33. expatgm

    expatgm Active Member
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    All I can recommend is bring back the jumper, the one and only.
     
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  34. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    The werd is:
    Do not wreck your kid's chance to advance by teaching the wrong aeroplane turn. Arms are rotated horizontally as shown above without a vertical arm movement, which is used by the unenlightened instructor to make weight on the outside of the snowplough turn. Stem City !
    Do not wreck your kid's chance to advance by just dragging them around with the plastic steering wheel. Pretending that they are driving a car is the best way possible to involve the upper body. [​IMG]
     
    #134 bawbawbel, Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  35. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    steering wheel ... yes, that can work, if done correctly...

    Rotate the steering wheel for the next turn causes the new/next outside shoulder to rise which unweights the skies. This can also cause/force 'step/stepping on the inside ski' to happen/occur although unlikely with a snow plough stance.

    Rotate the steering wheel back for straightening up causes the now outside shoulder to go down which weights the skis, especially the downhill/outside ski.

    aeroplane arms can also work, if done correctly... perhaps it is better done with bent arms so that it is easier to visually see the hands which is the case with the steering wheel where the hands are always in close proximity to each other and easily/visually seen.

    they are both rotation exercises for unweighting/weighting, and can work, if done correctly...
     
    #135 KL., Jul 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  36. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    [​IMG]

    Everybody gets one.
    Wouldn't be easy to introduce to US/Oz, though.
    The problem is that "rotation" may only be mentioned as a gremlin which has been entirely banished on the way to some misguided skiing utopia. The upper body may move, adjust, compensate (in order to maintain balance ), but never rotate.
    I kid you not. On a US forum I posted my standard fix for a beginner stuck on a slope, which I employ constantly.
    It was immediately deleted without explanation. Something like this:
    " A beginner in a traverse looking down a fearful slope will lock up with maximum counter.
    I tell them to just ski straight ahead, then look down and rotate into a turn . "
    Baaaad like a sheep, it seems.
     
  37. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    aeroplane arms could be done without rotation where the the new/next outside shoulder rises, which unweights the skies, but the LB would need to be involved after that to steer the skies, which would be difficult with a snow plough stance/skis but would be ok with parallel skis.
     
  38. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    If we apply the KISS rule for the kids, they are seen to do none of the above, especially any up/down movements.
    We are looking at a sequential exercise for the ankle biters, everything else can be considered at the proper time.
    Which is not just now..... :)
     
  39. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    I will make a GIF of our Security Snowplough when the sun comes out.
    In the meantime:
    Someone in a forum far, far away said "Anticipation can mean so many things. In technique discussions it is usually limited to something called anticipated stances"
    Herein lies the train wreck. Both KL and I agree (although KL sometimes lapses into his old assertion that you can rotate one half of your chest while the other side remains unmoved ) that an anticipated stance does nothing, only an anticipation ROTATION can be transferred to the new turn.
    We looked at a Korean anticipating in mogul valleys 3 years ago. Nothing has changed except that this time I insist on an unambiguous comment :
    Is his inside arm movement preceding and transferring to the turning of the skis (Yes/No).. hmm ...not obviously.
    Is a rearward outside arm movement preceding and transferring to the turning of the skis? hmm.. not obviously.
    Is there a shoulder rotation in the direction of the new turn preceding and transferring to the turning of the skis?
    Aha! And even if it is only over a few frames, it is as effective as a rotation over the entire previous turn because it is the SPEED of the rotation when it is stopped that counts. Duration of the rotation can make it easier to produce and time, that is all, that is all, to be sure..

     
    #139 bawbawbel, Jul 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2017
  40. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Your own personal effort may be hindered by clothes moths, or a strange effect known as Stein Shrinkage, which seem to affect the girth of the jumper, but not the length if it's arms.
     
  41. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    And we will call it "Real Rotation"! Real Rotation must involve a sequential interaction between the upper and lower body as defined by Bob Barnes.. Anything else, we can call a "Clayton's Rotation."
    The skis come around as the kid STOPS turning the wheel, to the complete mystification of the watching parents.
    All vertical movement in all different turns must be considered later because that is a DIRECT rather than sequential action. It helps change in inclination and is the easiest action to learn and apply.
    So there is the cardinal rule when learning sequential turning:
    NEVER CONTINUE YOUR WINDUP INTO THE TURN ITSELF. (albatrossity ! )
     
    #141 bawbawbel, Jul 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  42. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Here comes an official snowplough conga line. Brave little blighters, making do with incomplete smatterings of different styles. Three of them are holding their arms out, but that just limits their turns, as they have been told that it is for balance ONLY. Most are managing OK with weight back, lean to the side style. But that goes nowhere.
    One is happy to make a straight carve line with one ski, while the other ski pushes snow.
    Only one seems to have found her way to control by upper body (probably came to it naturally). She seems bored and is eating some snow whilst descending.
    Instructor then makes the forbidden perfect sequential stop movement, but he hides it by pretending to look back at how his pupils are faring.
     
    #142 bawbawbel, Jul 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  43. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Meanwhile, posters on another forum have called a truce about deciding wether you can actually physically pull your boots back or if you must thrust your stomach forward !
    Straaight line thinkers. On the other hand, WE know the ease of adjusting balance against the snow friction of a turn compared to within a straight scuss. Like an (ahem) snowboarder, WE never surrender that tiny hint of a turn.
     
  44. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    If you are "intermediate", you probably have a hole in your ski controle which mystifies you as the experts flash past.
    We intend to abolish that secret society by the earliest possible introduction of whole body technique. :)
     
  45. telecrag

    telecrag Part of the Furniture
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    That would be the royal we.
     
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  46. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    Even telemarkers, whose style has much to benefit from sequential movement, seem to be missing out on the first significant revolution to take place in two decades. It has the potential to swell their sadly depleted numbers. Should we allocate time to straighten them out (so to speak) , or let them continue to be a threatened species ?
    [​IMG]
     
  47. dossa5

    dossa5 Dedicated Member
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  48. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    Do I ... ?

    Sequential Turning 1,2,3,4... interesting name
     
  49. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
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    "you can rotate one half of your chest while the other side remains unmoved"
    You and I know that this means to move the axis of rotation of the chest away from the spine, but that is probably more advanced than a beginner, or even a telemarker, would want to try and emulate.
    Can you see Dossa's new turn above being aided from pure shoulder rotation ? He is past the fall line.
     
  50. KL.

    KL. Dedicated Member

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    "you can rotate one half of your chest while the other side remains unmoved"
    Excellent for driving the skis, in control, down the fall line and going very (very) fast :)

    Hand/arm can be open or rotated inward when doing this because because it is an outside chest/axis movement and can be alot of fun, especially off piste :)