Initiate a turn without edging-- ski like a surfer

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by bawbawbel, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    95
    Continuous kerfuffle last year, a more mature approach should allow all these experts to modify their style on the short snow gun runs available.
     
  2. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    59,815
    Likes Received:
    5,935
    Just when you thought they'd fixed the septic tank....... :headbang::deadhorse:
     
  3. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    95
    There we go- replies only from the dogmatic, it seems.
    The same poster who once said "With long radius turns, the skier's upper body follows the turn because the edging is more powerful."
    Right off topic, for a start.
    And then he enumerated the various moves that can start a turn, not even mentioning shoulder rotation.
    (not going to search old posts, they are full of gibberish)
    I saved:
    "Snow boarder mate of mine said ...
    Q : How many skiers does it take to change a light bulb ?
    A : 5... One to change the light bulb and 4 to tell him / her they're not turning correctly.
    :out:"
     
  4. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    14,406
    Likes Received:
    6,675
    I hope this thread delivers the same popcorn it did last year.
     
    kaegee, CarveMan, skichanger and 2 others like this.
  5. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1970
    Messages:
    26,858
    Likes Received:
    7,611
    I was hoping for a bit more variation on the theme...
     
    Telemark Phat likes this.
  6. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    14,406
    Likes Received:
    6,675
    Me too, I think I'll have to explore initiating a turn with my left thumb. I'll report back after I next go out on the hill.
     
  7. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1970
    Messages:
    26,858
    Likes Received:
    7,611
    Was thinking upslope shoulder/elbow/ grip alignment but I figure thumb is equally valid.
     
  8. cold wombat

    cold wombat Twitter Contributer
    Social Media Mod Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    42,542
    Likes Received:
    8,953
    Ski like a surfer? Moar like surfing (the forums) like a boarder.
     
    skichanger likes this.
  9. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    16,412
    Likes Received:
    4,100
    Not surfed in about 40 years but as far as I recall surf boards do have edges and a soft or hard rail determines the turning characteristics of a board.
     
    freddy likes this.
  10. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    59,815
    Likes Received:
    5,935

    Q. How many BawBawBels doe it take to change a light bulb?
    A. Two. One to change it using only shoulder rotation, and the other to do it so it actually works.
    :out:
     
    malibu likes this.
  11. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1970
    Messages:
    26,858
    Likes Received:
    7,611
    how do yuo translate for stance and cross-section?? Maybe stand up paddle skiing will be all the rage this year.
     
  12. hipo

    hipo Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,727
    Likes Received:
    1,548
    to turn without edges or hands, the upper body rotation is directly proportional to the percentage of man made snow
     
  13. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver Dedicated Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,981
    Likes Received:
    1,488
    I've been surfing for 40+ years and skiing for 30+ years.

    The worst thing I can or could have ever done is ski like a surfer. I've introduced plenty of my surfing mates to skiing and have plenty of other surfing/skiing mates and to a man or woman, they all agree, as surfers, we have to forget about surfing turn initiation when on skis, otherwise it's cross up city.

    You can spot a beginner skier who surfs by their shoulder driven turn initiation, generally followed by crossed skis and a face plant.

    I'm not a ski instructor nor have ever been one but seriously. Keep it simple. A lot of instruction technique in many areas (not just skiing) is actually over complicating a simple process to justify said experts credentials or position.
     
  14. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    May 20, 2005
    Messages:
    30,921
    Likes Received:
    7,722
  15. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1970
    Messages:
    26,858
    Likes Received:
    7,611
    LOL so many people to send that too.
     
  16. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1970
    Messages:
    26,858
    Likes Received:
    7,611
    Now what wax to use??
     
  17. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    May 20, 2005
    Messages:
    30,921
    Likes Received:
    7,722
  18. parkmonkey

    parkmonkey Old And Crusty
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    May 20, 2005
    Messages:
    30,921
    Likes Received:
    7,722
    Summer wax?
     
  19. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1970
    Messages:
    26,858
    Likes Received:
    7,611
    well you sure don't need Mrs palmers
     
  20. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1970
    Messages:
    26,858
    Likes Received:
    7,611
    now wrt the OP, notice how unsurflike this is [​IMG]
     
  21. Chowder11

    Chowder11 Addicted Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    9,771
    Likes Received:
    4,525
    Im both a skier and surfer and have never ever once crossed reference the two, have never even thought of cross referencing the 2.
    In fact I laugh at people who tell me I would be a good snowboarder because I can surf, skate and ski well.
    They are all individual sports and techniques vary to the point they should never ever be crossed referenced.
     
    qwill, kaegee and DPS Driver like this.
  22. Chowder11

    Chowder11 Addicted Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    9,771
    Likes Received:
    4,525
    Is that Laird up to more of his crazy antics?
    He is starting to get as many haters and fans with the weird shit he keeps inventing
     
  23. hipo

    hipo Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2011
    Messages:
    1,727
    Likes Received:
    1,548
    bikini wax?
     
  24. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    16,412
    Likes Received:
    4,100
    Depilatory wax.
     
  25. cold wombat

    cold wombat Twitter Contributer
    Social Media Mod Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    42,542
    Likes Received:
    8,953
    Thread now needs input from @JoeKing
     
    skichanger and Majikthise like this.
  26. skichanger

    skichanger Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,206
    Was wondering when this would start.
    Over the last 2 days I got to play with outriggers and sitskis. Lots of fun and really interesting. It was amazing how different the sitskis could be to guide around the mountain. Some you leant to edge and turn. Some you had to pivot to get to turn. Would have loved more time to collect data to ponder at a later date.

    Outriggers - I want some! Such fun hooning down the hill with them. Could be very dangerous.
     
  27. CarveMan

    CarveMan aussieskier.com
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    May 12, 2000
    Messages:
    66,275
    Likes Received:
    20,433
    Pass the butter & salt.
     
  28. TACKIE

    TACKIE Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Silver

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,384
    Likes Received:
    495
    I surf....the net. Some times I use shoulder rotation, but mainly wrist rotation. I think bawbawbel understands.
     
  29. HappyGirl

    HappyGirl Dedicated Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Messages:
    4,065
    Likes Received:
    446
  30. JoeKing

    JoeKing Part of the Furniture
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2011
    Messages:
    19,143
    Likes Received:
    6,780
    Hi!
     
    skichanger likes this.
  31. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    95
    " You can spot a beginner skier who surfs by their shoulder driven turn initiation, generally followed by crossed skis and a face plant."
    No,no! The faceplant comes from trying to pivot the skis by weighting the back foot, opposite to ski turns!
    Once the beginner gets the weighting right (and that is a very big get) he will be following Jean Claude Killy towards the simplest and most effective and screamingly joyful skiing. Hmm Joe King could probably phrase it better.
     
  32. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2014
    Messages:
    8,240
    Likes Received:
    6,110
    Ithink there are some spots left at Hugos (Nindl) Race Camp. Sounds like your just about ready for it.:confused:
     
  33. BobGnarly

    BobGnarly Dedicated Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,355
    Likes Received:
    2,057
    just proves skiing is ghey lol
     
  34. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2012
    Messages:
    16,412
    Likes Received:
    4,100
    I remember my first tobbogan ride as a child and that moment I was flying through the air and thinking wow this is fun, oblivious to the consequences of landing, then came the impact, I think I had a cry.
     
    cin, SkiMountaineer and Telemark Phat like this.
  35. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Addicted Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2012
    Messages:
    9,888
    Likes Received:
    3,160
    I have brought a bit of skiing to my surfing. I do a bit more "carving" in my surfing, or at least try to - more rounded turns and less sharp jams.

    Completely different techniques to achieve that, but it was carving turns in skiing that led me to want to bring a similar feeling more often to my surfing.
     
    dawooduck, Chowder11 and parkmonkey like this.
  36. Dusty B

    Dusty B Dedicated Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    2,887
    Likes Received:
    284
    I would ski like I surf but I can't work out how to mount the bindings crossways.
     
    skichanger and Chowder11 like this.
  37. Chowder11

    Chowder11 Addicted Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    9,771
    Likes Received:
    4,525
    I see where your going with that
     
  38. kaegee

    kaegee Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,550
    Likes Received:
    1,490
    After surfing for nearly 50 yrs ..no help ...hindrance . As mentioned in another tread find I more similar to 'initiating a turn' on a motorbike. ie oounter steering . Even car drifting.
    Sitting back salting.
     
  39. OzSkier

    OzSkier Dedicated Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 1999
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    84
    Awesome, it's back!!! Ha ha.

    Initiate a turd without wedging.

    C'mon and snow damnit!
     
  40. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    95
    Then you cannot ski deep powder with the negative sidecut skis which you import?
    The ONLY way to ski them is with new school upper body rotation, either shoulder or arm and stock to create the necessary initiation and banking.
    Just to remind my disciples- All rotation below the navel is DIRECT rotation (ankle, knee, hips) and occurs simultaniously with ski response. Above said point it is INDIRECT rotation, which can be transferred to the skis as required by BLOCKING a rotary movement.
     
  41. skichanger

    skichanger Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2012
    Messages:
    4,368
    Likes Received:
    1,206
    Still waiting for the videos.;)
     
  42. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver Dedicated Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,981
    Likes Received:
    1,488
    If you insist.

    Well bugger me, I don't know how I do it then but I do.

    What about when I ski deep pow backwards, how can we explain that?
     
  43. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    95
    Skichanger has previously made an important observation. Namely, a rotation cannot be made except against a firm base.
    In deep powder this base is produced by compressing the snow. The top rotation begins at this point, it is released by blocking as the ski tips come free of the snow.
    S++++ said "With long radius turns, the skier's upper body follows the turn because the edging is more powerful."
    As usual, a poorly considered statement. There is no physical reason why this should be so.
    The real reason is to allow a windup so that the following turn can be initiated and linked effectively.
    In Oz skiing this could be called "The Forbidden Rotation"
    Actually, it is reserved for the "top" skiers. Be aware!
     
  44. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    59,815
    Likes Received:
    5,935
    ROFLROFLROFL

    "The ONLY way to ski them is with new school upper body rotation....." LOL



    ROFLROFL
    You don't HAVE any disciples.....
     
  45. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    95
    Yes, DPS, ski style is deeply personal and usually iterative. That is, it comes together from many sources and we retain the bits that feel good (recreational skier) or WORK (competitive skier).
    Instruction just speeds up the process.
     
  46. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Dedicated Member
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2000
    Messages:
    3,510
    Likes Received:
    95
    Sandy, explain how you would ski with DPS's skis, plis.
     
  47. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    59,815
    Likes Received:
    5,935
    ROFL
    As usual, you pick out one statement and take it out of context..... :deadhorse:

    You are talking about deep powder here.... then you take my statement that relates to packed snow, and think that it relates to deep powder.LOL

    Your observational skills are abominable, and your analytical skills are atrocious, and yet you seek to teach people the "shoulder flailing, over rotating, BBB new school surfer's albatross flapping turn"? ROFL


    An still, after months of requests, you still CANNOT produce a video of YOU ACTUALLY executing ANY of your "BBB new school surfer's albatross flapping turns"

    Put your video where your mouth is..... I dare you!!! :crap:
     
    #47 Sandy, Jun 23, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
    Kletterer likes this.
  48. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room
    Moderator Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    59,815
    Likes Received:
    5,935
    You're the one running the show, let's see a video of YOU skiing the DPS skis.

    Put up or shut up. :crap:
     
  49. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver Dedicated Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,981
    Likes Received:
    1,488
    Here is Stephan Drake, the owner of DPS Skis on the prototype Spoon. This is the convex base model prior to teh current flat base production version.

    He still skis them like a skier, even though we describe skiing on our pow tools as surfing pow, the movement and turn initiation is not shoulder driven.

    the video won't load as it's a Vimeo, just ggogle DPS Spoon Stephan Drake.
     
  50. absentskier

    absentskier Part of the Furniture
    Season Pass Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    19,931
    Likes Received:
    8,984
    What is this thread?
     
    cin likes this.