‘Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing’ upgrade

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Cam Walker, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    So let me get this straight. Somehow you have convinced yourselves that walking with experienced, well equipped guides is more dangerous than going out alone with inadequate gear?
     
  2. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    I think most folks who learn through the mentor / trial and error method have a suspicious view of those who don't, particularly in walking, climbing and other outdoor sports.
     
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  3. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    Guides should be compulsory for all, just like they are for all people who drive a car.
     
  4. telecrag

    telecrag Part of the Furniture
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    Bloody oath! With my competitive nature, I am bound to try and out perform them, in turn they step it up, next thing you know we are bunji skiing outta helicopters with wing suits!

    Much safer to go out having forgotten my boot liners, with only a snickers.
     
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  5. telecrag

    telecrag Part of the Furniture
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    I reckon that will die out, or change. You should see what the youngsters are getting up to!

    People getting into backcountry skiing (in particular) are more and more coming from a resort skier background, and understand the ability to fast track, and pay to learn. Thats how they learnt to ski in the first place.
     
  6. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    So let me get this straight. If they haven't done it in the same way as you they shouldn't do it at all.
     
  7. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
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    Whats wrong with doing it with a walking club using some social skills.
     
  8. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
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    Kangaroo Island Wilderness trail (5 days). Anyone is allowed to do it but the middle 3 days are only accessible to people who have payed the $161 trail camping fee. Is this the way we really want to go ?
     
  9. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    If I may be serious ---- there are quite a few good and different ways to take up an outdoors activity, some quick and expensive, others slower in progression and cheaper.
    In the long term experience, fitness, reliable gear and good judgement are required for self reliance.
    3/4 cannot be bought, only learnt with time.
     
  10. Seth

    Seth Old And Crusty
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    It's an option (a good and viable one).

    Explain why it should be the only one though?
     
  11. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    What's wrong with doing it with guides?
     
  12. Seth

    Seth Old And Crusty
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    I suspect a lot of this sort thing comes down to it not being like that back in the day.
     
  13. currawong

    currawong Old And Crusty
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    nothing wrong with doing through clubs, but it doesn't suit everyone.

    I did a few walks back in the 80s with a prominent club and decided that it wasn't for me. Both my partner and i had come up through guides & scouts and had a bit of grounding that way. talked to friends who were experienced. subscribed to Wild when it was a good publication. tended to err on the side of caution and over preparation. don't think we made any really dangerous mistakes.

    probably my worst mistakes were about underestimating demand at easter. multiday from Castelemaine to Daylesford found us struggling to get a site one night at a car accessible camping ground. Then a few years later we only just got a site at Big River on the way up Bogong - and were not exactly welcomed by the group who was already there.

    No objection to paid guides.
    Big objection to commercial ops getting preferred treatment.
     
  14. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
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    Guides are not the point here. Should we all just throw our hands up in the air and say it all too hard to stop this .The commercial boot gets in the door and we end up with another situation like Tasmania 3 Capes. Never happen you say. Yeah right.
     
  15. DJM

    DJM Dedicated Member
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    Many years ago I had an off putting experience at the Prom. I knew nothing of the area other than hearing it was a fantastic place to walk, so we drove in with a topo with the intention of parking at the Mt Oberon carpark and walking to Little Waterloo bay return.

    The road was blocked by barriers at the turnoff intersection to Tidal River, so we figured an extra 2 and a half kilometer walk up to the carpark wouldn't hurt. As we were gearing up, a bus pulled up and told us we couldn't walk up and had to go through the shop in Tidal river and pay for a return ticket on the bus!

    I declined his offer and we started walking when he said OK then just drive up. We did and found a relatively empty carpark, did the walk and saw one other family of three the whole day.

    It was a complete money grab by what I have always assumed was a local commercial operation. It was over 20 years ago now and understand it does become busy and have also gone through the process of booking sites for a kayak trip since.

    I'm always curious about the real intent of development from experiencing this type of scenario.
     
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  16. currawong

    currawong Old And Crusty
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    Your story make me wonder if the issue is that they want a service for peak times but they want to outsource it to a commercial operator. but to make it commercially viable it has to operate in non peak times too. you can see how they got to such a "solution", but they forgot to apply a sanity test.
     
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  17. Jellybeans1000

    Jellybeans1000 Dedicated Member
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Rover Chalet Accomodation. And apparently we shouldn't upgrade this...
     
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  18. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    Yeah, they fkn rip.
    Bastards.
     
  19. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    I'm not saying it's the right thing, just that it's a thing.
     
  20. DJM

    DJM Dedicated Member
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    That's bloody first class!
     
  21. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    This is unfortunately what happens when there are commercial concessions.
    Even in the Blueys where mostly guiding firms don't have exclusive access, the capability to monopolise an area day in and day out means it pushes out non-commercial users.
     
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  22. DJM

    DJM Dedicated Member
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    I understand the dynamic is somewhat different in KNP, but have operators up here had any problems in how they can operate and do they have high costs/permits? Thinking Phil, Bruce, K7 etc.
     
  23. Jellybeans1000

    Jellybeans1000 Dedicated Member
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    In a plane, not in the Alps.
     
  24. currawong

    currawong Old And Crusty
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    Who says you shouldn't / can't ?
     
  25. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    You need an Ecopass to operate in a NP in NSW. It's about the same slug as businesses with leases have to pay.
     
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  26. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    The country this particular trail wanders thru need toilets & water due to its nature. And this needs to be paid for somehow.

    I don't have an issue in this instance and look foward to wandering along it. I have in the past looked at the route and it always was going to involve a lot of water carrying or going in a sure wet period which provides other challenges.
     
  27. Jellybeans1000

    Jellybeans1000 Dedicated Member
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    The new plan for the walk between Falls and Hotham includes an upgrade for Rover Chalet.
     
  28. Hully

    Hully Dedicated Member

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    You need to be a Licensed Tour Operator (LTO) in Victoria to conduct a commercial activity on public land (managed by Parks Victoria). I was for a few years....not particularly costly and their main interest was liability minimisation for Parks Vic, public liability insurance with them listed as party on the policy and risk management policies.
     
  29. Team Weasel

    Team Weasel Active Member

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    Sounds very dubious given what Hully has mentioned.

    I don't see this being about selling this walk to the public - who's the target audience? That part of the world is beautiful, but it's no Routeburn or Milford. The guided glampers would be better served going to those places (and probably walks like the Larapinta, Overland and the track they're putting into the Gramps). The rest of us can do it without the huts and guides - and I won't be paying for that privilege (I've done plenty of walks without permits - just don't go in the huts!)

    Good luck trying to get BC users to pay to stay within 500m of the track - love to see how that will be enforced!

    This plan is pretty clearly a grab for more control of the area, and an attempt to make cash off those of us who ski and walk Feathertop as individual citizens.

    It also sounds more like a foot in the door - imagine a resort-owned hut that close to Feathertop. Before you know it it will be the REDBULL FREERIDE CENTER, with guided parties, avalanche control work, streaming webcams, heliskiing and probably a hot tub and a tow rope.

    And what's wrong with that?

    - Humans stuff up wilderness areas all the time. We've built enough resorts to ski at - go there if that's what you want. And I don't trust a resort management board not to exploit the situation for coin.

    - There's no need to make this area easier to access and stay at. It's fine as it is - and making things easier does diminish both the environment and the achievement of walking and skiing in the area. FFS, it's a 2-3 hour walk up - it's not a glacial approach in NZ or the Alps. What happened to learning, suffering and challenging oneself, to acquiring the skills needed through a series of smaller hikes, etc?

    - We don't have to drop the bar for everything in life so we can all achieve it. Why stop with a hut? Why not handrails, seats to sit on when we get tired, a fence to stop people getting too close to the cornice? If you can't walk on a formed path with a backpack and read a weather report before you go, you have no business out there. If you need a guide you should probably be questioning whether you belong in that particular environment.
     
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  30. telecrag

    telecrag Part of the Furniture
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    There should be pokies in all the huts, so people don't get bored.
     
  31. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    FIFY
     
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  32. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
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    :clap::clap::clap: Yep as i said foot in the door.
     
  33. Mister Tee on snow shoes

    Mister Tee on snow shoes Dedicated Member

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    Whatever your view may be on this issue, be sure to make an official submission to P.V. before Dec. 19th 2016. We the long term park users have a right to put forth our views on this issue.
    The idea that you have to pay or you can't come near any of these places is in effect privatization by incremental steps.
    The whole scheme has questionable figures and unsubstantiated costings as well as no environmental impact survey statement.
    Places such as Tidal River, Halls Gap and so on all offer home comforts to some degree , but the actual Nat. Parks' interiors that they service have , by and large had development kept out of them.This has been an on going battle and not just a matter of good luck. Nat. Parks are by design for conservation of natural flora and fauna and for future generations to repair to recover from built up man made ugliness and urban insanity.... They are not merely resorts waiting to be built. " They paved paradise and put up a parking lot".
     
  34. CarveMan

    CarveMan aussieskier.com
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    So where do you draw the line?

    I've done a lot of skiing & ski touring with a guide in the Alps in the last 6-7 years, and without question the most memorable days I've experienced this decade have been these - quite simply they have been the highlight of my life of late.

    I don't have the skills to ski & travel safely on a glacier and I openly admit it. Because I can't do this on my own, would you deny me the use of a guide to have those experiences?
     
  35. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    Come on CM, as Team W said this isn't the NZ or Euro Alps.
    Chalk and Cheese, totally utterly incomparable.
    Edit: when I do the Haute Route in the next few years, I'll be using a guide.
    Different horses for different courses
     
    #285 tele-whippet, Nov 27, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2016
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  36. Jellybeans1000

    Jellybeans1000 Dedicated Member
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    So go straight out on your own with no skills at all.
    I have known people who have nearly killed themselves doing that.
    IMO you are sending the wrong message.
    A walk with huts along the way is not a bad idea.
    Charging people who don't want to use the huts is stupid.
    And that rule is pointless because enforcement = nonexistent.
     
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  37. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
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    I know where you are coming from coz i have seen both sides. Difference is the size of our alpine area and the management parameters are well established in Europe. Not the same here.
     
  38. Team Weasel

    Team Weasel Active Member

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    I was thinking more about the hiking than the ski touring aspect...but I remain unconvinced of the role of guides (but that's my choice, and not one I make for others).

    I'd still argue that you'd be better off spending that cash on a mountaineering course in NZ and getting the skills that will empower you to go the places you want. It's a longer and harder road, but ultimately more fulfilling.

    But that's my value system - and others clearly will do things differently.
     
  39. Mister Tee on snow shoes

    Mister Tee on snow shoes Dedicated Member

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    Carve Man , Sahib jee, comparing the European Alps with the Oz Alps is like comparing apples and oranges. It is not the guided experience that is the point of contention.I like trekking abroad and will use a guide every time in India, Pakistan , Europe etc.
    It is the fact that private commercial operators will get their infrastructure built in pristine undeveloped areas of fragile Alpine wilderness that only rich glampers will be able to access once they have paid an exorbitant fee. All others who have been finding enjoyment by self directed recreation in these said areas for many years indeed, will , by design have to find somewhere else to go if they don't want to pay.
    One chap on the bush walking web site said it looks like the Vic. Labourals( ALP) have got the cows/alpine grazing out of the high country only to turn the best bits into a pay or go away luxury resort.
    That should fire up the Alpine grazing/ cow friendly LNP in Victoria's opposition benches .
     
  40. Team Weasel

    Team Weasel Active Member

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    Yep, straight to the thousand steps or You Yangs for a day hike. And then progress from there.
     
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  41. Jellybeans1000

    Jellybeans1000 Dedicated Member
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    Or do both - get a guide and attend a mountaineering course. The more knowledge you know, the better you are.
     
  42. Jellybeans1000

    Jellybeans1000 Dedicated Member
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    Yeah, that's what they are going for with this project except longer and with accomodation.
     
  43. Kletterer

    Kletterer Addicted Member
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    I used to have pot smoking belayer that often fell asleep. If you are gonna take risks -take em in the hills. Trust your own decisions even if you stuff something up. You will be a better man for it.And wear a funny hat
     
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  44. DJM

    DJM Dedicated Member
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    I've said it before and I'll say it again, with all due respect. It is nothing at all like the alps. Nothing.
    The comparison is ludicrous. Spend time developing a simple skill set that you would already be 90% versed in and get amongst it.

    I know you have the tools already. Again with respect.
     
  45. CarveMan

    CarveMan aussieskier.com
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    Just FWIW for as long as you keep using the term 'rich glampers' your posts carry a lot less gravitas than they could.
     
  46. CarveMan

    CarveMan aussieskier.com
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    Every fish jumped straight into the boat.

    My point was that there are people out there, that have some of the skills, but for whatever reason either need or want a little bit of hand holding. I need it in the Alps but not in Aus, but others do - but part of my skill building in Australia was with a good group of mates who all brought some skills to the table and we worked out a lot of stuff as a group.

    Not everyone has a network like this, and a guided walk might just be the catalyst for them to realise that they can do it themselves, after picking a guide's brain for a week and I think it's a good option for people

    I have basically spent the bulk of my adult life facilitating people going skiing, whether it was in my old career as an instructor, my current one selling gear, and my prospective one operating tours in the alps. There are lots of different people out there, with different abilities, motivations and desires. A lot of people don't realise just how capable they are, and just need a little push in the right direction. They're just not going to sack up and do it themselves, especially if they have nobody to do it with. And that's a shame.
     
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  47. Mister Tee on snow shoes

    Mister Tee on snow shoes Dedicated Member

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    I applaud people who want to do outdoors activities courses and training. I just did the Level 2 first aid course quite recently.
    The prospective 'cashed up glamper' may not be on that road to enlightenment , grasshopper. They want to by pass all of that hard work, experience accumulated by trial and error and have their soft boy thingy
    ' experience' of ' the Alpine wilderness ' that they paid for.That sounds like a snob's view but I don't really care if I am a trekking snob.
    It is a commercial commodification of what we BC valas already do at a nice price and without the incremental development/ loss of wilderness that inevitable comes along with such commercial ventures .Ventures such as the one found the in the planned Falls to Hotham hiking scheme.Nature sold to the highest bidder.
    Once again money won't buy the fitness and physical training needed to slog it up the bleeding Diamantina spur , no matter how rich you are.Most of all Money won't buy back what will be lost once this Alpine wilderness becomes a bleeding lego land tourist circus.
     
  48. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    I do quite like this school of fish :)
     
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  49. CarveMan

    CarveMan aussieskier.com
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    I don't even know where to start.
     
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  50. Mister Tee on snow shoes

    Mister Tee on snow shoes Dedicated Member

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    Carve man , Huzoor !, The spade is being called a dark garden implement . The whole scheme that is the topic of debate here is aimed at wealthy people who seek to have some kind of assisted luxury outdoor experience that many of us have been having independently , with little permanent environmental impact or expenditure. Some of us find these year round experiences to be the source of ongoing mental and spiritual well being in a world that is increasingly in- effing - sane! . To price us out of this by making it 'wealthy user pays' merely makes the frivolous and distasteful epithet 'cashed up glamper' even more apposite.