Charlotte Pass Lease Renewal thread

Discussion in 'Charlotte Pass' started by toxicfox, Jul 31, 2014.

  1. toxicfox

    toxicfox Active Member

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    Thought I would start this thread as it is important as a stand alone issue. Please feel free to comment and discuss.

    For those not on the Charlotte Pass email list, this request was sent today to sign an online petition.
    https://www.change.org/en-AU/petiti...il&utm_term=0_a4f40438cf-0528f578f9-407398281

    From what I have read from meeting notes at NSW Parliament the Minister of OE&H may not be involved in any decision, the final decision is down to Premier Baird. It is still important that the petition gains numbers. Please pass this onto other lodge members at CPV and anyone else who has enjoyed visiting CPV in the past.
     
  2. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old And Crusty

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    Yep, got it direct and responded.
     
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  3. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    What are the terms of the lease and the terms of renewal?
     
  4. toxicfox

    toxicfox Active Member

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    Current Head Lease expires 30 June, 2015. Sub-leases (lodges) in March 2015. KAC has already secured an extension, but I don't know any details.

    Despite years of negotiations there are no terms as yet from the NSW government or departments. The biggest issue seems to be that the current regime is dedicated to an Open Tender or Expression of Interest. This is different to Direct Negotiation which has occurred with other perisher Range Resorts. With the amount of capital expenditure involved by both Kevin and the Lodges the EOI seems unfair treatment by those in power. The situation at CPV is very different to a Government Minister granting themselves a lease on a Cafe at Circular Quay or a Mining lease in the Bylong Valley.
     
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  5. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    Is the EoI / Tender for the Head Lease or the Sub-leases or both?

    I can see a reason for the subleases to be directly negotiated particularly for clubs which are essentially not for profits (but still exclusive use of public lands) but am less convinced re the head lease. Buying a lease with no easy renewal clause (a la KT) is a commercial decision which affects the initial purchase price; what's the commercial or social benefit to the public of NSW to single invitation tender?
     
  6. Dusty B

    Dusty B Dedicated Member

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    Got email also, responded.
     
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  7. toxicfox

    toxicfox Active Member

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    The EOI is for the Head Lease.

    I don't see your point about CPV being exclusive. Visitors and guests (day trippers) are always welcome. Why is it ok for Perisher to have a lease renewal by Direct Negotiation and not EOI. The current Lessee did due diligence 7 years ago and was told at the time and until this year that the Head Lease would be completed by Direct Negotiation. CPV is only asking to be treated with the same commercial equity and due process of the other resorts in NSW.
     
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  8. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old And Crusty

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    Yep. And none of the lodges can do a thing until the head lease is settled. A bit of a throwback to the 1980's when the NPWS didn't want humans in any national park.
     
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  9. Sago

    Sago Active Member

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    Hi Toxic,
    No one apart from Kevin will take on the resort. It may work in Kevin's favour that he sit's back and wait for them(NPWS) to come begging to him to take lease up as no other senile person would take it up as it stands in current economic climate. Kevin has been a God send to CPV with funds committed with no return(or little) to date.I believe he should take a punt on the EOI and he may get it far cheaper than what he now pays. As it stands he owns the infrastructure and he can ask what he wants for it if he is unsuccessful. As you know with your lodge and others current numbers are dismal compared to years gone by and this is no easy quick fix to address this. Kevin at least as shown some commitment to the cause which I believe no one else will commit to.
     
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  10. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old And Crusty

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    So true.
     
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  11. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    I'm leaving aside other arrangements as I don't know the details of the leases there. I'm not talking of the head lease. What I meant was that there are club lodges, where members utilise public lands, exclusively (that's what the lease gives you! no one else can come and build there on your spot!). I'm not saying that's bad or evil or anything, just that this is not a particularly common arrangement in NSW anymore.

    I'm hugely not in favour though of a petition which is asking the government that they must deal with one party only.

    How do we know that only one party will want CPV without testing this via the market?

    If the DD says that it WILL be via direct negotiation then there's a good chance it will. If it says it might be, could be, should be, will be where practicable, may be with a number of parties, or whatever, then there's a risk.

    Please note this is no criticism of either CPV or 'Kevin' (who I know nothing of) but it's how a third party (i.e., pretty much all of NSW and all of Government) may view the matter.

    I've seen a number of lease renewal / end of tender period public outcries by existing leaseholders that the world will end and the public be at a loss if the lease renewal isn't with the existing holder, garnering great publicity and much sympathy, but in the end if they didn't stump up the $$ and someone else wants a go that's how it's gone and the world still turns around.
     
  12. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    If it is true that CP has been told for 7 years the lease renewal would be by direct negotiation and not open tender as per the Perisher lease and told at the last minute, hang we want to open tender this there is a huge loss of good faith from the negotiation process. If this was done to Twiggy Forrest or Clive or Gina then NPWS dragged to the High Court so fast for breach of trust and a few other things (not to mention confidentiality) they would be naked and spinning.
     
  13. Dusty B

    Dusty B Dedicated Member

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    Being a member of a club lodge at CP, it is concerning that not only my but the greater public's use of CP is at risk here. I can understand what you are saying around the exclusive use of the land (we are talking the small plot of land that the lodge was built on exclusively from funds from members and our own toil which we continually inject to keep it going). But this is the case of every soccer club house, scout hall, country women's association hall, bowling club, etc.... BTW, we are always open to new members joining (Pygmy Possum).

    If I purchased the main lease 7 years ago, and through due diligence, it was committed to me that at the end of the lease in 7 years I would be able to get first discussions as part of a direct negotiation, this would be factored into the price I pay for the lease upfront and also determine how much capital I would tip into the joint also. Therefore being told EOI instead would instantly alter the equation of original investment and potentially make the value of infrastructure either go through the roof (Kevin owns this, if he doesn't hold the lease and the leasee wants it, can he name his price?) or to be completely written off (new leasee don't want the infrastructure, turn it into a bushwalkers paradise, no skiing allowed, get rid of your lifts).

    The value of my membership, not that it will ever be sold, becomes worthless if we can't use the lodge anymore if the new leasee decides it so.
     
  14. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    I wouldn't panic, but uncertaintly is difficult.

    Yes, many community sites are leased, those types of lease are usually with Councils and are not dependent on a commerically oriented head lease arrangement.

    It sounds as if the current leasee is in a good position. At this stage AFAICT there's no reason to panic. To Government there is a year to go. They will have a small team who look at it and they will be currently focussed on projects with dates much closer than June 2015. Plus, OEH, and NPWS have been cut numbers-wise and the EPA is about to be the subject of an Upper House inquiry. They won't have to 'come begging' but they'll approach when they have something to give. If CPV has been diligent in meeting licence conditions then it is also in a good position to negotiate. Government needs to show transparancy to those without a vested interest (ie, skiers, lodge users, resort leasees, etc). Government also shouldn't be i the business of feathering nests and needs to be able to show that they are receiving value for money (which is not always the same as 'the most money').
     
  15. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    Yes, so no need to panic, unless it was an inference not a commitment.
     
  16. Tree Breaker Bob

    Tree Breaker Bob Active Member

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    Except the main object of NPWS is to make CPV an historic site only open for bushwalkers, no overnight stays

    This has been on their agenda for years and at a meeting to extend our lodge before Kevin's time this issue was raised and that's why we had to bully our lodge directors into spending money at CP as they were concerned it would be wasted

    In SASC's last news letter again it states this is what NPWS wants except we have to take the fittings and fixtures from the lodge as we depart. I'll scan it and post it tomorrow

    My thoughts are to annoy the crap out of your state member

    Bob
     
  17. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    What does the PoM say?

    Staff and attitudes change. It's no longer 1987.

    I suspect that this will be handled by legal in Sussex St via OEH, not parkies in Jindy.

    My take is that the current NSW political mood is not to close down functioning ski resorts and tourism facilities. I'll be more than very surprised if my take is wrong.
     
  18. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    The KNP Plan of Management Contradicts you're position.
     
  19. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    You learn something new every day on this forum. I wasn't aware Baird moved the OEH from the Premiers dept into Planning.
     
  20. sourmash

    sourmash Well-Known Member

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    The sub-leasees ARE panicking. I'm a member of SASC and there is deep concern that if the current primary lease is not renewed within the next few months, the sub leasees will be expected to remove all fittings and evacuate club lodges by the end of June 2015 (or possibly by end of March 2015 - I've seen conflicting dates).

    If the current state govt wishes to have an open tender, it should have been kicked off 18 months ago, not 10 months before the current lease expires. The state govt should extend the current primary (and sub) lease for a period of time while any open tenders run their course.
     
  21. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    Have any sub-leasees other than KAC applied?

    I don't mean to sound like I don't care, but finding out and confirming actual facts rather than regurgitating newsletter panic is a good way to go.

    Ask the local member (Barilaro) what the State's status is. He will forward this query to Stokes who will seek an answer from his department, who will either get back direct, or through Barilaro, or both. Tell them nicely why you want to know now, not in February (I assume to make sure you can advise at AGM's, make financial arrangements for club, and facilitate any potential physical works, etc). Has anyone called an actual human in OEH? Might not hurt. OEH property legals probably aren't trolling ski forums for problems which for them are nine months away from the crux.

    Don't pull out anything if there's no current legal requirement!
     
  22. jrr

    jrr Active Member

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    I have just been up at our club, Snowbird, and coincidentally our Club President and family was up for a week.
    He directly addressed this issue with us and his comments were enlightening...
    I am now not worried at all. Some clubs may be panicking but ours isn't. He's certain the lease will be renewed (well before June 2015), initially for 2-3 years whilst the full expression of interest tender is undertaken, whence it will be for 40+ years...
    Some interesting points he made are that since the Obeid Cafe disclosures there is no way another restricted tender will ever be undertaken for something like this. Also, he pointed out that the lease renewal discussions had been going on with NPWS from nearly 3 years ago, but that 12 months ago, almost the entire upper echelon of them was 'retired' and a new bunch appointed. These are the people who are now having to start afresh the lease renewal negotiations.
    He also thinks Kevin is in a really good position to submit a low tender with no competition. He has a sneaking suspicion that this current petition is another bit of bargaining in the process.
    We all want Kevin to make a go of the resort as a profitable one is the only way we'll get another lift, and proper maintenance done on the existing ones.
    The less he (or someone else) gets the lease for, the more likely there will be money to expand lifting capacity.
    Anyway - that's my 0.02c...
     
  23. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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  24. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    PB could buy it, bung in a connector lift and call it Upper Valley ...
     
  25. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    Paralyser West!
     
  26. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    Exclusive ski in ski out accommodation at Paralyser West
     
  27. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    I heard CP have been running ads all day on SnowFM and 2XL saying they're going to lose their lease.
     
  28. sbm

    sbm Dedicated Member
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    I always get the impression that, against the juggernaut of the ski industry, and the hordes of shooters & fishers with 4WDs, the NPWS has the resources and funding of two people in a shed with a ute. No wonder they don't want anyone in the parks, they'd have enough trouble managing them with no people in the parks I reckon. I'm not convinced they really understand what they have to do or what they've done wrong with the lease renewal.

    If I was a lodge member I'd be getting ready to squat next year just in case. Occupy Charlotte's!
     
  29. toxicfox

    toxicfox Active Member

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    From the OEH; a lease extension of 28 months was/is to be offered, taking the expiry date to October 2017 while negotiations continue. Not sure why they need three years to run an EOI, but cant see much capital expenditure during that time. The OEH goes on to say that they will 'consult and consider the lessees concerns', but did not say that any 'new' Head Lessee will have to give the existing Lodges a new lease. Any news on that would be good.
    While I take yours (and Sago's) point that Kevin is best placed to bid, there is always someone who thinks they can run the place better. And there is no way of knowing how they will treat the Lodges, and our leases are tied to how much someone is prepared to pay.
    I also agree with Sago about ownership of the infrastructure, but you can bet that the NPWS will have Legal opinion that they will own it at the end of the current lease. If they can offer use of the lifts and sewerage plant to prospective Lessees without them having to pay a 3rd party (kevin) then they can expect higher bids.
    CPV has nothing to do with the conduct of Obeid et al, and the lease should have been negotiated at the same time as Persisher and Guthega, but the NPWS delayed and now want to change the rules, using words like 'open & transparent' and 'provides financial return' to justify the EOI. Only under 'special circumstances' will they Direct Negotiate. But the OEH will not define what constitutes 'special circumstances'. Probably only applies to Golf Clubs and courses of which they belong to.
    As Sourmash says, if a new Head Lease (or extension to the current Head Lease) is not signed by March 2015, then the Lodge leases will expire. with the exception of KAC the Lodges are leased from the Village and the Village is leased from the Parks. I don't think the Lodges can remain or negotiate directly with the NPWS.
     
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  30. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old And Crusty

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    One way to totally flock up CP. Would be overrun by bogans from down the road.:mad:
     
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  31. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    Just like Guthega ....
     
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  32. jrr

    jrr Active Member

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    Precisely ! Why The flock would we want a blasted link to Perisher ????
    The whole attraction of the place is that it is delightfully isolated and isn't easily accessible.
    Then again, maybe it would still be enough of a pain to get to that your general joe public couldn't be bothered. Also, any link lifts, and there would have to be more than one, would only be practicable in really good seasons. Guthrie only opens when there's been at least a metre of snow so link lifts are never going to work as a 'normal' option.
     
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  33. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    Never happen. Ski from Charlottes to Perisher to understand why.
     
  34. rocketboy

    rocketboy Dedicated Member
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    Maybe some civil servant thinks there's an extra buck to be made out of Charlotte Pass in future decades a couple of hundred metres up when it's too warm at 1700 metres to ski. Govts - both elected and permanent - are full of people pretending to think about the future ... Let's have an EOI and see if we can shake a few more dollars out of someone looking to make a small fortune out of ski resort.

    At the end of the day - there is simply no comparison between an empty ski resort and a Circular quay cafe.

    Chances are the EOI will be conducted in a way that allows them to walk away from a low ball offer and simply do a 2-3 year roll over until it's someone else's problem to decide what to do.

    Meanwhile, the NSW govt just made all the CP Lodges spend a ton of money on energy efficiency upgrades.

    Everything that is wrong with Australia can be found in this particular example of failed government policy execution.
     
  35. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    I know this is hard for CPV folks, but this is a good move overall for government. More of this, and expectation of this by business and community, is a good thing. Anything else is open to scrutiny an challenge.

    In an environment where both sides of politics in this State are embroiled in jobs for the boys and contracts for the lads and lasses debacles and embarrassments, we should be applauding a move to openness and transparency. My personal view is that owners lobbying via petition and advertising that they are 'special' is not a good tactic for dealing with bureaucracy and Government.
     
  36. rocketboy

    rocketboy Dedicated Member
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    We had to destroy the village to save it ...

    Nothing beats the mentality of a senior public servant looking to get their annual performance bonus.

    The biggest problem in Australian public - private contracts are "commercial inconfidence" clauses whereby the public never actually find out the full terms and conditions of a public - private deal.
     
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  37. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    My personal view is that it's a long, long way from this scenario, but uncertaintly is difficult.
     
  38. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old And Crusty

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    Would not even cross their minds.... only concern would be due process.
     
  39. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    I was half joking about the PB link but …. If the lease is up this could be one scenario on the NPWS. NPWS likes consolidation.
     
  40. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old And Crusty

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    Press release from CPV.....

    CHARLOTTE PASS LEASE RENEWAL

    Wednesday 6th August, 2014

    Charlotte Pass Village Pty Ltd (CPV), operator of Charlotte Pass Snow Resort wishes to clarify some recent media coverage in relation to the renewal of its head-lease of the Charlotte Pass Resort in Kosciuszko National Park.

    In June 2007, CPV was purchased by its current owner. As required by the lease, the consent of the Minister for the Environment was obtained, subject to conditions that were complied with. Prior to this, a discussion was had with the National Parks and Wildlife Service (NPWS) regarding the likelihood of renewal of the lease on its expiration, and the conditions under which it would be renewed. CPV was told that if it complied with the terms of the lease to the satisfaction of NPWS, it would be offered a new lease.

    A valuation report was obtained as part of the purchase. The valuer records in his report that he had made enquiries with NPWS, who confirmed that, subject to the lessee complying with the Kosciuszko National Park (KNP) Plan of Management and demonstrating satisfactory compliance for a three-year period, “a new lease will be offered”. He notes that this would provide security of tenure through to 2057, in line with other leases in the park.

    During 2008, the NPWS offered new leases to 121 lessees in the Perisher Range Management Unit, even though almost all of those leases had many years to run. About the same time a new lease was issued to Perisher Ski Resort, consolidating its interest in a number of leases, all of which had a considerable time to run (up to 17 years). The leases were renewed by dealing directly with the lessees, not by a competitive selection process. While this was going on, NPWS discouraged CPV from applying for a renewal of its lease, urging it to wait until the current backlog of leasing was out of the way. CPV acted accordingly and refrained from applying at that time.

    Both correspondence received from NPWS between 2009 and 2013 and documents obtained under Freedom of Information requests continued to indicate that NPWS were prepared to commence discussions for a new leave with CPV.

    It wasn’t until 4 March 2014 that CPV was advised that NPWS would not be proceeding with direct negotiations for a new lease.

    No reason has ever been provided to CPV as to why direct negotiations were abandoned.

    The lease extensions recently proposed by NPWS have contained changes to the current lease that would erode CPV’s and the sublessees’ legal rights.

    Until CPV obtains a renewal of its lease, neither CPV nor any of the sub-lessees can accept bookings for accommodation for the 2015 ski season onwards.

    The fact that this situation now exists is not in any way the fault of CPV.

    CPV have been seeking negotiations for the renewal of its lease, in accordance with its reasonable expectations, since 2008, and officers of NPWS have repeatedly acknowledged the need for the negotiations to be concluded in a timely manner.

    CPV believe the Minister for the Environment should instruct the NPWS to take appropriate steps to offer CPV an extension on the current lease with the same terms and conditions to allow direct negotiations to commence with CPV for a new lease on similar terms and conditions to the leases offered to Perisher Ski Resort and other lessees.

    NPWS has made repeated representations to CPV that they could rely upon being offered a renewal of its lease, as long as it complied with its obligations under the lease and under the KNP Plan of Management.

    CPV relied on those representations in various ways, including deferring an application for renewal of the lease in 2008 and investing heavily in renewed plant and equipment in the resort and in environmental management.

    In CPV’s view it would now be unconscionable for NPWS to refuse renewal of the lease, or, at the very least, to refuse to enter into proper direct negotiations for renewal.

    Further information, including a chronological timeline of events can be found at www.charlottepass.com.au/itsnotfair.html
     
  41. @skicomau

    @skicomau Active Member
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    Official Media Release
     

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  42. currawong

    currawong Old And Crusty
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    this may very well be true in the abstract. However, if clear assurances have been given in the past, and they have formed the basis for major commercial decisions, it is not appropriate to reneg. Apply the standard to new matters, not ones where assurances have already been given
     
  43. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    Then those matters get taken into account in any discussions.

    Have only heard one party's viewpoint on the issues and wording, etc (I have no reason to doubt it of course).

    The 'it's not fair' line makes me quite uneasy.
     
  44. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    in addition, with this stuff: http://forums.ski.com.au/xf/threads/icac-investigation-in-nsw.57559/page-25#post-2372081 going on it shows a lack of nouse to expect 'special treatment' at the moment. It may all look rosy from the Snowy but in Sussex and Goulburn Streets this stuff is important
     
  45. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    A whole raft of estoppels/legitimate expectations in there.

    The lawyers, after all, must live.
     
  46. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    They will get worked through. I'm not sure working through it via media release is a good way to do it, personally.

    LOL
     
  47. Polaris

    Polaris Dedicated Member

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    You must remember the owner also owns the local radio station too so its pretty cheap way for him to get some public support happening
     
  48. currawong

    currawong Old And Crusty
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    That's why i said IF clear assurances have been given. The claim is that the assurances were also given to the bank. Of course they may be stretching the truth, but if the claims are true, then I think honouring the assurances trumps implementing the more rigorous procedure.
     
  49. Tree Breaker Bob

    Tree Breaker Bob Active Member

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    Oh well

    How much is the lease going to bring in and how much is going to be lost in legal fees due to political correctness. I think the rule here is KISS and stop wasting money

    When we tried to extend our lodge at CPV the NPWS produced an impact statement that made war and peace look like a short story. It was all about a saw tooth rat or something and we were in its mating line. We lost

    Bob
     
  50. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    Imagine even skiers having to comply with the laws of the State ! I'm amazement.