Canadian Missing near Charlottes

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Fandango, May 20, 2013.

  1.  
    Fandango

    Fandango Active Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2013
  2.  
    Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Part of the Furniture

    Can i be the first to point out that it is Charlotte Pass, not Charlotte's pass or Charlottes Pass as indicated by the ABC editor. Or perhaps they have been looking in the wrong place.

    Sorry. Pet hate. I think i need to relax a little. May go to Nelsons Bay to chill.
  3.  
    Ziggy

    Ziggy Addicted Member Season Pass Holder

    Quite right SB. Get your teeth into sloppy journalism.

    ...

    We had this thing happen last year too.

    But pls avoid nationism, ageism, racism, snowboardism and ATism in posts.
  4.  
    The Bush Patrol

    The Bush Patrol Active Member

    Seems to be little info in the papers in Syd & Newy on this but I am keen to see his proposed route & what sort of gear he had with him. Can't help thinking that he may have strayed off course or tried a short cut & may have slipped due to conditions & be laying in some scree gully at the bottom of Strez creek or Lady Northcott.
  5.  
    The Bush Patrol

    The Bush Patrol Active Member

    Although experienced hiker alone & in a typical Ozy white out alone with no local knowledge & with no diserning visible features even if he has a map & compass he may have been facing his shoulders south & walking 45 deg west or got out clarke way turned around & walked back towards carruthers way. Sure Mr Chatten & all at mountain rescue would be thinking of that but if he hasn't slipped he could have ended at the other end of the main range in those conditions.
  6.  
    Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage Moderator

    heard today he is ex military and cold survival trained. That's one thing in his favour... been out a long time though.
  7.  
    tbnext

    tbnext Dedicated Member

    I have a colleague who is very experienced in that area who is convinced he went on to the western faces behind Kosciusko.
  8.  
    skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture Moderator

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2013
  9.  
    legend

    legend Dedicated Member

    I know the family is desperate but this could be a disaster in the making.
    Having been in Victoria's Bushwalking S&R for almost 40 years, I have seen the odd individual make claims of expertise and that it is an easy task to go and find someone. The last one wanted to volunteer on a Lake Mountain search because he couldn't understand why the searches couldn't locate the missing man.
    I found the missing man (deceased) and then had a coroner's inquest because this volunteer made a complaint about the lack of searchers abilities to locate the missing man sooner. The coroner discovered he had no search experience, no off track experience and apart from skiing Lake Mountain, had little knowledge of off track snow walking or other skills necessary for searching.
    Searches need a full co-ordinated approach with many different skills ranging from outstanding navigation and observation abilities, communication (radio) and organisation with people at a base as well as people in the field.
  10.  
    Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Well-Known Member

    Well said Legend.

    If he was so highly trained why didn't he check the weather before setting out? And if he did they why not wear more a appropriate, I believe he was wearing jeans a tee shirt and (maybe as I can't remember the brand) an appropriate jacket.

    Part of the problem was that no one started looking for him til days later because no one knew he was out there!

    The only people who had any idea he was missing was the car rental company... and for the first couple of days that just assumed he wanted the car longer!

  11.  
    telecrag

    telecrag Addicted Member

    People really interested in helping, with relevant knowledge, would already be in the volunteer group?

    Maybe they do things differently in Canada.

    IMO this guy is either deceased, or hiding out doing a bear gryls, only to emerge and sell the story to Womans Weekly. (me and a mate thought about doing this, but figured someone would have to lose at least a few digits to get 6 figures)

    Very sad.
  12.  
    Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Well-Known Member

    If anyone is interested here is the twitter hashtag "search" on the social media campaign to find him.

    https://twitter.com/search?q=%23PrabhSrawn&src=hash
  13.  
    The Bush Patrol

    The Bush Patrol Active Member

    Yes I was thinking that he could be out the back of Townsend somewhere. But assuming that he is not doing a Harold Holt, from anywhere in the main range in a week & a half that he has been out there, he should have been able with moderate fitness be able to walk in a straight line to some civilization of some kind. So as this hasn't happened one would assume that they are looking for an injured person or a body. As sad & morbid as it sounds I have nearly no job ( winding up in the next few weeks) & no firm prospects yet, could be persuaded for a search with other patrol members for cash. Don't know how we would go but just a bit confident that we would find him. If you camp out there & did a bit of searching at night may also be something that mountain rescue are not doing. I would assume that Doug & the boys would have extensively searched every where around his proposed route & the main ridges of the range on skidoos but unless he has been buried by snow after digging a hole & then collapse or snow accumulation (in which case see in spring/summer)he may be no where near where they are looking say broken up at the bottom of the crags or scrub around friars alp.
    Assuming Heli has been doing some recon work in the area so feel free to chime in Heli. Can't work out why thermal imaging is not working as in snow no better spot to use it. Unless of course no body temp god forbid.
  14.  
    damian

    damian Addicted Member

    They do outdoors in general, and in particular - career professional mountain SaR in national parks, incredibly well.

    Ziggy made a valuable suggestion.

    Also, having experience and being experienced, are two quite different things.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  15.  
    Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Well-Known Member

    Cras question but really curious...

    How long does the thermal imagining work after a persons decreased?

    He was missing for almost a week before they started searching. So if he died that first night i am guessing it wont work?

  16.  
    Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Well-Known Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2013
  17.  
    The Bush Patrol

    The Bush Patrol Active Member

    Didn't know there was one. I wasn't too interested in the beginning but trying to dig up info has it starting to consume my thoughts. Thermal plumes are outstanding in the snow especially at night but don't know how deep they go if buried or holed up in a snow cave given the insulating character of snow. Doctor Doug feel free to chime in at any time.
  18.  
    The Bush Patrol

    The Bush Patrol Active Member

    Damo maybe you have some gems to add in also, as my thermal imaging experience is only based on hiding hydroponics lights in roof spaces from police choppers.
  19.  
    Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Well-Known Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2013
  20.  
    Lady Mamabear

    Lady Mamabear Part of the Furniture

    [​IMG]

    I reckon they might be a bit different.
    Body temp would drop fairly quickly after death in those conditions. Unless he IS still alive, I doubt it'll be useful now.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  21.  
    Boodwah

    Boodwah Dedicated Member

    Core body temp is 37C. Following death, most cells will stop generating heat within minutes. A 75kg bucket of 37C water will freeze after several hours depending on the ambient temperature/windchill etc. The gastrointestinal tract contains other organisms which will go on living and generating heat for a while longer. Sorry, you asked.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  22.  
    Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Dedicated Member

    Main Range Kosy is not a place to be without good gear,navigational skills,expertise and mobile phone,and definite plans left in hands of Parks Staff when going solo...

    We hope that he turns up alive soon......

    Main Range Kosy has few pole lines,few huts and is very very exposed should weather clap out...It is not like Bogong/Bogong High Plains where you can bumble around and get buy.....

    anyway bears and I hope that all ends well even though odds not looking good...
  23.  
    Ziggy

    Ziggy Addicted Member Season Pass Holder

    He's young, sounds fit and may still be bashing around gullies. Water not a problem.

    He may have done a 'Lord Lucan'.

    Or he's cactus.
  24.  
    Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Well-Known Member

    Yep thats what i suspected. (not sorry i asked! thanks for the info)

    If the 4 aircraft that have been searching with heat imaging for a week (or more) then I reckon they would have found him alive by now.

    Very very sad.
  25.  
    Shrek

    Shrek Old And Crusty Moderator

    some years ago, just on dusk at the bottom end of lake albina we heard some voices, but didnt think much of it.
    later the next day we were stopped by a police search party for a chat, they were looking for a guy that had gone missing near kozzi.

    he walked out on teh geehi road about 4 days later, a bit roughed up but ok. it was january.
    unless this guy was well equiped i don't like his chances.
  26.  
    Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Dedicated Member

    Please tell others where you heading...

    Just leave a note on car windscreen with possible itinery..

    Try making it easy for others to find you ....

    we are still hoping for successful outcome here.

    Main Range is not to be messed with in bad weather...

    The day will come when KNP will hand out free distress beacons to anybody that asks them.

    Maybe cost effective strategy....
  27.  
    ladycamper

    ladycamper Active Member

    They're already handing out free distress beacons (on loan) in the Blue Mountains in NSW. This area involves walking on generally very well-defined tracks with light scrambles, campsites usually have thunderboxes.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  28.  
    sbm

    sbm Well-Known Member

    Yep, I do love those light scrambles on very well-defined tracks.

    I've loaned PLBs from Blackheath NPWS before. It's a good service, but it does involve filling out a big form, and you have to pick it up and drop it off during hours, which can be a big ask.

    I would prefer subsidised PLB's to a loan service. If the price was down to $100-$200, with no subscription fee, everyone would have one.

    The other problem is that beacons have to be registered to an individual, which is a problem for clubs and other situations where people want to split the cost.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  29.  
    Time

    Time Active Member

    SBM - that looks sketchy as flamboyant_expletive. where abouts on the main range was that pic of VSG's taken?
  30.  
    climberman

    climberman Old And Crusty Season Pass Holder

    sbm - I reckon there's only a few years before they are 100 to 200. They are down into the 300's now.

    You can register a PLB to an individual in a Club, with a variety of names as contacts. We do this for my fishing club.
  31.  
    Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage Moderator

    sbm that is one of many lovely traverses available to the curious amongst the cliffs of the blue mountains.. That one is under mt banks.
  32.  
    ladycamper

    ladycamper Active Member

    Looks "offtrack" to me. My Blue Mountains experience is doing Grose Valley walks and the Six Foot Track.
  33.  
    Shrek

    Shrek Old And Crusty Moderator

    then you have not lived. those are roads not tracks.
  34.  
    The Bush Patrol

    The Bush Patrol Active Member

    Family offer 100K, and all the cracks had gathered to the fray !!!
  35.  
    telecrag

    telecrag Addicted Member

    IMO given the last mobile location, he is in the thick of geehi, and may not be found for years. Truly sad, and I hope he is found for closure.

    Or he is hanging with the germans in central australia.
  36.  
    Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Part of the Furniture

    Read that yesterday but it is plus or minus 2km. Wondering how they work this out? Is it based on a single direction the signal came from? In areas of good signal i'm guessing triangulation but if the phone is only talking to one tower it would have to be based on a single line only. If so a few degrees out and the signal could come from Koz, not west townsend.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  37.  
    skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture Moderator

    Couple of years ago 2 chaps telephoned for an extraction from the Blue Lake area due to weather and had GPS coords all ready to give SES before making the call. When they tried passing this info on after explaining their situation the response was somewhat underwhelming with SES not being interested at all in the GPS data. SES just wanted them to stay on the phone long enough to triangulate the location before going out and effecting the rescue. Talking with folks later they explained SES had this in system on the basis that most calls out to Kosi would be by people who had phones but no GPS hence focussing their procedures on this technology. I still do not know if this gossip is correct but would be interested in a confirmation or otherwise.

    Being in mind that many smartphones have a GPS chip and the software to pull this data (every 2nd app seems to want to do this) is readily available there is no reason why SES should not have a set up to do this as well.
  38.  
    Yardsale

    Yardsale Addicted Member Moderator

    Each mobile phone tower that can get your signal can return an arc, and an approximate signal distance. If you only have one tower getting the signal, you need to search along that arc in the approximate area.

    If you have two towers you go for the intersection of the two arcs, which improves the accuracy a lot. If you go three or more, then you're down to the 10-15 meter range of accuracy.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  39.  
    DJM

    DJM Dedicated Member

    I'm cursing the responsibility of a new job....I would've picked you up and headed down. Reward should be donated back to SAR. Maybe minus a case of VB.

    Telecrag's right IMO....Dead set shitfight down in the suspected radius.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  40.  
    The Bush Patrol

    The Bush Patrol Active Member

    Yes but Doug would have looked all around Kosi & beyond & if he went further off the back & down Geehi way then good luck. I do think that they would have searched a fair way down however. I don't know what gear he had with him but would assume he was not going to camp so my guess is he turned around as he would try & make it to the car.
    But I won't give away all as it may now be worth 100K !!!!!!!!
  41.  
    tsangpo

    tsangpo Active Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2013
  42.  
    skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture Moderator

    Things are getting a little spooky over Jindy way.

    People are being offered $250.00 / day to go out and search.

    People are being helied in and out of search areas.

    People are showing up as far as Perisher without a map and buying one at Perisher to commence searching.

    People who have no idea about the area are going out and searching. Like getting to the Snowy Crossing and deciding it is a better deal to hook up with a local group just out for a day wander than start searching does not seem like a well planned exercise.

    I'm not sure how productive this activity is. Sure has ramped up the BC activity for this time of year.
  43.  
    Shrek

    Shrek Old And Crusty Moderator

    i would put in a few weeks holiday and go down if asked. search area to be between the sentinel and Mt Townsend.
  44.  
    skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture Moderator

    At least you know where the Sentinel is.
  45.  
    Shrek

    Shrek Old And Crusty Moderator

    to be honest i think he is somewhere in the valley to the north of the sentinel and south of watsons crags. chance of finding him before november close to zero.
    the other option is that he sheltered near blue lake and got taken out by a cornice collapse.
    i don't remember if it was snowing when he went missing.
  46.  
    GS

    GS Addicted Member

    This certainly has potential to end in more tears, only need a half reasonable front to roll in and suddenly we'll be looking for more than one corpse.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  47.  
    HappyGirl

    HappyGirl Dedicated Member

    He went out just as the May snow came in.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  48.  
    Shrek

    Shrek Old And Crusty Moderator

    maybe they are planning to rely on snowcaves.
    personally i think an igloo would be better.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013
  49.  
    skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture Moderator

    The Police/Search & Rescue do have a circle to search in from his last phone contact. I think this was a 4 km radius. And knowing where that is does help.

    If he tucked himself into some shelter to get out of the weather it maybe very difficult to locate him. And add snow and fire regrowth into the equation it is all a matter of luck after starting in the right area.

    It took 2 years to find Stephen Crean.
  50.  
    Ziggy

    Ziggy Addicted Member Season Pass Holder

    Spot Messenger: under $200 plus USD 115 per year sub. 3 msgs can be customised. They work but aren't the gold standard.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2013