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Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned?

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#732488 - 20/07/09 02:03 pm Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned?
Scott No Mates
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I was recently in the market for a new dishwasher & washing machine (not due to any handouts but it would have helped).

Looking at all the new appliances spruiking their wares I came to a massive realisation: :lightbulb: There is no incentive to use water efficient appliances as the cost of water in Oz is so low. A water efficient (four star) uses about 11 litres of water per wash, a less efficient 2 star used about 14 litres per wash. When you are paying only a couple of $ per kL it would take thousands of washes to justify the extra $300 or more.

Justifying it on energy efficiency is a little easier however still a very long payback period (longer than the life of most appliances today).

Washing machines it becomes a little more obvious of how much more efficient a front loader is compared to a conventional top loader however when you consider that you may want to get several loads done and dried in the limited sunny weather then you go back to your old habits.

Are we following blindly that we must install higher priced energy efficient equipment (and sending ourselves broke at the same time) or are we sticking with inefficiency at the expense of the world (not our pockets)?

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#732499 - 20/07/09 02:14 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Scott No Mates]
El_Guapo
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Those appliances are a medium to long term proposition. The price of water will go up a long way in the next 5 years.
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#732595 - 20/07/09 03:29 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: El_Guapo]
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As it should. It will be the only real way to ensure people use less. Only the US uses more water per person per day than Aus. In such a drought prone country that is just ridiculous.
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#732720 - 20/07/09 05:07 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Go Native]
TC
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 Originally Posted By: Go Native
As it should. It will be the only real way to ensure people use less. Only the US uses more water per person per day than Aus. In such a drought prone country that is just ridiculous.

if youre on a minimum wage and you see a jump in youre water bill you wouldnt be rejoicing
Especially if you have a family and not enough money to buy a water tank
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#732988 - 20/07/09 09:11 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: TC]
PG
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Tell that to those who go into partnerships who hand over control of our essential water infrastructure to investment banks and international corporations.
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#733244 - 21/07/09 08:00 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: PG]
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if we were serious about water usage then we would immediately ban the growing of rice and cotton in the Murray-Darling basin. The amount of water used for these two crops boggles the mind. The return is pitiful for the amount of water these two consume. T
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#733273 - 21/07/09 08:47 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Louie]
Crystal Moderator
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I don't think the issue is the price of water.... what we pay here is totally different to what they pay for it in Chile for instance..... it's not the cost.

It's about availability and sustainable use. personally we use as little as possible, I try not to abuse the world we live on (too much) \:D

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#733300 - 21/07/09 09:29 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Louie]
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 Originally Posted By: Louie
if we were serious about water usage then we would immediately ban the growing of rice and cotton in the Murray-Darling basin. The amount of water used for these two crops boggles the mind. The return is pitiful for the amount of water these two consume. T


That wouldn't do anything. The people with water licences would use their allocation to irrigate a crop of something else.

Buying back licences is the only way to return any water to rivers. And then it still has to rain so there is actually water in the system to allocate.
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#733303 - 21/07/09 09:33 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Snow Blowey]
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I use gut loads of it. But there is plenty of water available in my neck of the woods and unless the great divide gets knocked over there always will be.

In my area i think its better for people to use heaps of water getting nice green shady space around their house than chewing up more electricity running an air conditioner because everything is parched outside.
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#733305 - 21/07/09 09:36 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Scott No Mates]
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 Originally Posted By: Scott No Mates
There is no incentive to use water efficient appliances as the cost of water in Oz is so low.


Added to which, the billing system almost encourages inefficient water use.

My last (6 monthly) bill from Dinner Plain was just over $400, of which $5 was water use ;\)

$12 was sewerage use, and the remaining $380+ was for statutory charges

If the water use component of a bill is such a small proportion, what incentive is there to reduce water consumption?

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#733309 - 21/07/09 09:38 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Heli]
Crystal Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Heli
 Originally Posted By: Scott No Mates
There is no incentive to use water efficient appliances as the cost of water in Oz is so low.


, what incentive is there to reduce water consumption?


The thought that we shouldn't be abusing the world we live on.

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#733333 - 21/07/09 10:02 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Crystal]
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 Originally Posted By: Crystal

The thought that we shouldn't be abusing the world we live on.


That's a lovely fluffy response, but doesn't address the practicalities of the average-Joe-in-the-street, who doesn't have the ability to think beyond Channel 10's latest mind numbing offering.

We all have to use water: the education of the majority is a long term affair, whilst we need a short term solution, even if only temporary. The hip pocket usually gets by in the short term, but only if constructed properly.

A large charge for water use would do that. My case, with low water use charges and high standing charges, is counter-productive, IMO.

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#733338 - 21/07/09 10:08 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Crystal]
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Which brings the word "sustainable" into the picture. If you continue to take more from a system than you get back (in the case of the cotton and rice crops), somethings got to give.

The biggest incentive for me not to use much water is just to look in my tank every now and again (I'm only on tank water). At the moment its below half, which, for winter is crazy. Its normally nearly full this time of the year.

So, for me, its not the money bit that bothers me, its the lack of water. Anyway, as long as people rely on water from a dam they can't see, then over consumption will continue to be an issue.

....climbs down off soap box....

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#733346 - 21/07/09 10:16 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Heli]
Mr Bean
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 Originally Posted By: Heli
 Originally Posted By: Crystal

The thought that we shouldn't be abusing the world we live on.


That's a lovely fluffy response, but doesn't address the practicalities of the average-Joe-in-the-street, who doesn't have the ability to think beyond Channel 10's latest mind numbing offering.

We all have to use water: the education of the majority is a long term affair, whilst we need a short term solution, even if only temporary. The hip pocket usually gets by in the short term, but only if constructed properly.

Yes, the hip pocket works for a short time, but I think people get used to it and revert back to old habits. Sadly, education is probably the way to go, but by the time some folks have clicked, they'll be drinking dust.

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#733349 - 21/07/09 10:19 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Heli]
Louie
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 Originally Posted By: Heli
 Originally Posted By: Scott No Mates
There is no incentive to use water efficient appliances as the cost of water in Oz is so low.


Added to which, the billing system almost encourages inefficient water use.

My last (6 monthly) bill from Dinner Plain was just over $400, of which $5 was water use ;\)

$12 was sewerage use, and the remaining $380+ was for statutory charges

If the water use component of a bill is such a small proportion, what incentive is there to reduce water consumption?


agree completely. Of the ~$140 we pay each quarter for water less than $20 is for actual usage. The rest is other charges. This is for a 3 bedroom house in suburbia.
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#733353 - 21/07/09 10:28 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Louie]
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Even stupider is that my tenants can use as much water as they wish - I cannot pass on the water charges despite being separately metered... WTF?
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#733372 - 21/07/09 10:46 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Mr Bean]
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 Originally Posted By: Mr Bean
Which brings the word "sustainable" into the picture. If you continue to take more from a system than you get back (in the case of the cotton and rice crops), somethings got to give.


People who think banning growing of rice and cotton will do anything to return water to rivers are showing their ignorance of the water regulation system.

Please use this example to better understand the issue.

I am a farmer with a Water Access Licence that entitles me to 1000 water shares in the Muddy River. I pay $10,000 per year to maintain this Water Access Licence. I can use this water allocation to grow whatever i want. I chose to grow some rice and some cotton. Afterall i need to recoup my $10,000/yr water access licence fee.

GROWING COTTON AND RICE IS BANNED.

I am still a farmer with with a Water Access Licence that entitles me to 1000 water shares in the Muddy River. I still pay $10 000 per year to maintain this Water Access Licence. I can use this water allocation to grow whatever i want except for rice or cotton. I still need to recoup my $10,000/year fee. i.e. - I still use my water allocation to irrigate a crop. The crop isn't rice or cotton but it still gets the same amount of water applied to it.

Year 1 water usage = total allocation.
Year 2 water usage - total allocation.

So you've banned growing of rice and cotton but water consumption has stayed the same because you haven't solved the real water problem, which is the over allocation of water in our river systems.
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#733406 - 21/07/09 11:19 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: TC]
Go Native
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 Originally Posted By: TC
 Originally Posted By: Go Native
As it should. It will be the only real way to ensure people use less. Only the US uses more water per person per day than Aus. In such a drought prone country that is just ridiculous.

if youre on a minimum wage and you see a jump in youre water bill you wouldnt be rejoicing
Especially if you have a family and not enough money to buy a water tank


It's not about minimum wage earners it's about the ridiculous amounts of water the average Aussie uses. Check the following graph




The average Aussie uses more than 3 times the amount of water per day than do the Brits. If we changed the way we use water then I think even the poorest could afford significant price hikes.
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#733438 - 21/07/09 11:44 am Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Go Native]
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Geez there must be some people using a shirtload more than the average then. My family is nowhere near that average and I know plenty others like that too. Is that figure a total usage across all sectors simply divided through by the population or does it reflect domestic, direct water usage by the individual?
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#733459 - 21/07/09 12:03 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Go Native]
Heli
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 Originally Posted By: Go Native

It's not about minimum wage earners it's about the ridiculous amounts of water the average Aussie uses.

(snip)

The average Aussie uses more than 3 times the amount of water per day than do the Brits. If we changed the way we use water then I think even the poorest could afford significant price hikes.


The immediate thought, of course, is the obvious one about Poms and baths ;\)

The graph doesn't mention whether that is overall water use divided by population, or just domestic use/population.

If it includes industrial and agicultural use, it stands to reason that our small population and relatively large industrial/agricultural use would preclude the results, especially those of the UK and Australia.

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#733460 - 21/07/09 12:03 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: PK Sawd]
climberman
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I hate coming second to the Americans.
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#733463 - 21/07/09 12:05 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: PK Sawd]
Go Native
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 Originally Posted By: PK Sawd
Geez there must be some people using a shirtload more than the average then. My family is nowhere near that average and I know plenty others like that too. Is that figure a total usage across all sectors simply divided through by the population or does it reflect domestic, direct water usage by the individual?


You wouldn't think it's possible would you?

Still a standard showerhead has flow rates of 18-25 litres per minute. So a 10 minute shower could account for nearly half the above amount above alone. How many Aussies have only 10 minute showers? Toilets can use up to 12 litres of water a flush. Add in dishwashers, washing machines, a quick water of the garden, etc and it's fairly easy to see how a lot of Aussies would easily use close to the above figure.
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#733490 - 21/07/09 12:22 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Go Native]
Heli
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10 minutes showers

Who the heck needs more than 3-4 minutes in a shower, unless they're hypothermic and need a recovery bath The Yanks are renowned for their wasteful flush toilets, but the majority of Australian loos are dual flush/water saving units these days.

I'm very suspicious that the quoted graph includes all water use for the country, and is not representative of domestic use.

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#733503 - 21/07/09 12:37 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Heli]
Crystal Moderator
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 Originally Posted By: Heli
 Originally Posted By: Crystal

The thought that we shouldn't be abusing the world we live on.


That's a lovely fluffy response, but doesn't address the practicalities of the average-Joe-in-the-street, who doesn't have the ability to think beyond Channel 10's latest mind numbing offering.



Ahhh but it isn't a fluffy comment at all. 1 person can't save the world, but everyone doing something little combined together can make a massive impact. So if everyone consumed less and thought about our wonderful resources mother nature has given us we might just make that difference.

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#733506 - 21/07/09 12:39 pm Re: Water Efficient Appliances - Have we been Conned? [Re: Heli]
PK Sawd
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Water companies have been giving away reduced-flow shower heads (we bought our own). The take-on rate for things like water tanks for the garden is not insignificant in places like Melbourne. Have a look at garden centres these days and check out the water-reducing ideas on show there. Many average punters are already thinking and doing something about reducing their water usage. It's getting rare to see single-flush toilet cisterns these days too. So like Heli I am also suspicious of what that graph says. Mind you, we are responsible for what goes on in agriculture at least as we are the consumers. If we were weaned of our milk drinking habit, for instance, and started farming roos instead of cows we could make an enormous difference.

But ultimately, basing your choices on the fact that loads of other people won't do anything seems to miss the point to me. Any reduction you achieve in usage is still a reduction. There are good enough reasons for doing this unilaterally if you must.

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