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Sea ice

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#1037914 - 24/07/10 09:12 am Sea ice
Gerg
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This relatively new series is getting a bit of attention lately (click for large version):



It's the volume of northern sea ice, plotted as anomalies from the 1979-2009 mean curve. That is, it takes into account thickness reduction as well as area reduction.

As a sometime plotter of climate time series data, I rather like this effort. A nice feature that isn't obvious is that the bottom axis is positioned at the summer ice volume zero (-13,500 km³). So when the trace hits the bottom of the graph (during the September minimum), that's it. This planet no longer has a northern ice cap.


Edited by Gerg (26/07/10 10:33 am)
Edit Reason: Clarify

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#1038040 - 24/07/10 12:54 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: Gerg]
PolePlant
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Interesting but too short to mean much.
If you find one for 1879 to 2009, that might show a trend worth noting.

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#1038045 - 24/07/10 01:03 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: PolePlant]
Sandy Moderator
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For any posters wanting to derail the thread, let's stay on track with this one, or it will be moved to CV.
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#1038097 - 24/07/10 02:31 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: Sandy]
PolePlant
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Just making a point and that was all.

I think it fair to add rebutal to
"So when the trace hits the bottom of the graph (in September), that's it. This planet no longer has a northern ice cap." posted in the Weather forum

We already have that in BP and CV.

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#1038100 - 24/07/10 02:33 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: PolePlant]
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Off topic


Edited by Sandy (24/07/10 06:12 pm)
Edit Reason: Deleted Off Topic
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#1038135 - 24/07/10 03:16 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: Dr. Wood Duck]
rabble
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 Quote:
Shaded areas represent one and two standard deviations of the anomaly from the trend. Updates will be generated at approximately two-weekly intervals.


So from the graph, in 2010, the anomaly has been over -5SD from the mean \:o

That is one big shift. I would be checking all the instruments that provide the measurements that feed the model.

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#1038451 - 25/07/10 02:01 am Re: Sea ice [Re: rabble]
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The fact that the graph sample is not large enough is quite irrelevant. All of this global warming theory is about chance. There is a chance that the entire world's warming in the last 50 years is simply a random blip in a graph spanning the past and next 100,000 years. And there is a chance that it isn't. We are betting on that chance.

Now looking at that graph first posted, would you without considering any other information, make a bet that the graph will continue downwards. I know I would.

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#1038457 - 25/07/10 02:49 am Re: Sea ice [Re: Dacer]
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yah interesting but meaningless without showing previous hundred years, ie before people started creating carbon pollution. Is the graph available for longer time frame??? Was there not a period a thousand years os so ago where it was warm enough to colonise greenland? And then the colonisers were effectivley frozen out by rapidly cooling temperatures??

Edited by walrusballs (25/07/10 03:07 am)

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#1038507 - 25/07/10 10:10 am Re: Sea ice [Re: Gerg]
Tennex
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 Originally Posted By: Gerg

A nice feature that isn't obvious is that the bottom axis is positioned at the summer ice volume zero (-13,500 km³). So when the trace hits the bottom of the graph (in September), that's it. This planet no longer has a northern ice cap.


You have got to be kidding right?

There is no chance of there being 0 ice in September none at all. Currently the ice is above that of the 2007 low and the forecast for Artic temps is lower than normal.

I don't know what it is about that graph, I'm not a statistician. But I do know what you are claiming as possible or even likely has not a snowflakes chance in hell of happening.

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#1038511 - 25/07/10 10:22 am Re: Sea ice [Re: walrusballs]
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For all the currents Sea Ice graphs and Artic temperature graphs see here.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/sea-ice-page/

They have all been put on the one site and are updated daily.

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#1038576 - 25/07/10 02:00 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: Tennex]
PG
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 Originally Posted By: Tennex
 Originally Posted By: Gerg

A nice feature that isn't obvious is that the bottom axis is positioned at the summer ice volume zero (-13,500 km³). So when the trace hits the bottom of the graph (in September), that's it. This planet no longer has a northern ice cap.


You have got to be kidding right?


Firstly, Gerg makes so claim that this will happen in September 2010. It may happen in September 2020 or 2030. But September is generally the lowest month of Arctic sea ice concentration.

Secondly, Gerg makes no claim that the northern ice cap will disappear completely. It will still return in the winter months, however its highly likely that the Arctic will become complete ice-free at some point in in the future.

Thirdly, no data you've posted on WattsUpWithThat contradicts the fact that Arctic sea ice is in long term decline.

Fourthly, I would be cautious about using WattsUpWithThat as a source of useful data, as their sea-ice 'expert' is liar and fraud called Steve Goddard. A google search lasting 0.5 seconds shows numerous examples where Steve Goddard tells lies to prove his supposed point that the Arctic ice isn't melting.

Example 1: Goddard claims that Greenland is not melting without looking at any actual ice mass data

Example 2: Goddard telling lies about Antarctic changes in land mass

Example 3: Steve Goddard uses data about North American snow coverage to disprove global circulation model predictions of Northern Hemisphere snow coverage - and an example of how to pull a positive trend out of your rear end

Example 4 : Further criticism of Steve Goddard's "trend" as well as independent ice thickness data taken from submarines which validates the original figure Gerg posted

Finally, it's been proven that Anthony Watts is a liar and a fraud. It's also been proven that he doesn't understand
a) What a spatial average is
b) What a climatology is
c) How the earth's radiation budget changes with latitude

I have summarised these points in another thread here : Why Anthony Watts is a liar and a fraud

As you can imagine, this lack of understanding is somewhat of a handicap when one attempts to argue against the recent experimental data record which supports the theory of Anthropogenic Global Warming.

IMO


Edited by Sandy (25/07/10 05:00 pm)
Edit Reason: IMO added

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#1038579 - 25/07/10 02:03 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: PG]
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In your opinion.
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#1038646 - 25/07/10 05:01 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: main street]
Sandy Moderator
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Stay on topic.

The topic is Sea Ice.

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#1038699 - 25/07/10 06:00 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: Sandy]
Tennex
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IO think you will find the graphs presented on the whatsupwiththat.com page are not all prepared from data persented by Steve Goddard. If you look you they say where the graphs are from not one that I can see is prepared by Steve Goddard.

Here is a list of where these graphs come from.

JAXA AMSR-E Sea Ice Extent -15% or greater
NSIDC Arctic Sea Ice Extent
University of Bremen Arctic Sea Ice Extent - 15% or greater
Danish Meteorological Institute Arctic Sea Ice Extent - 30% or greater
NANSEN Artic ROOS- Sea ice extent 15% or greater
NANSEN Artic ROOS- Sea ice AREA
University of Illinois Cryosphere Today - extent 15% or greater
Danish Meteorological Institute - Mean Temperature above 80°N
Danish Meteorological Institute - sea surface temperature
NOAA ESRL temperatures
University of Illinois Cryosphere Today Arctic Sea
Cryosphere Today - this date compared with 2007
.......................etc.

I do not get into character assasinations based on dubious beliefs of others, so I won't even comment on that. The information provided on this site is all factual and from recognised scientific sources if you want to attack the data provided then do so.

I can's see anywhere in Gregs post where he makes a distinction from this or any other September, I presume he means summer ice loss not total ice loss. This pediction cannot be supported by any historical data or current temperature trends in the Artic. All you can do to come to this conclusion, is extrapolate a very very short term trend in ice loss over the period of satalite measurment. This is extremely unrealistic. Even NASSA have concluded that the recent ice loss is due to prevailing wind patterns pushing ice into warmer water. It is NOT due to an increase in Atic temperatures.

This is really been over done IMO.

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#1039124 - 26/07/10 10:15 am Re: Sea ice [Re: PolePlant]
Gerg
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 Originally Posted By: PolePlant
Interesting but too short to mean much.
If you find one for 1879 to 2009, that might show a trend worth noting.

The graph is the length it is (yes, short) because that's all the data there is (from satellites). There are longer plots assembled from various surface data, but they are necessarily less reliable (and generally only show sea ice area, not volume). E.g.:




To paraphrase Jeremiah, none are so blind as those with their eyes tightly shut.

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#1039149 - 26/07/10 10:37 am Re: Sea ice [Re: Gerg]
Ian D Administrator
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The northern sea ice was at about its 1980-2000 average in April this year and then dived quite quickly.

One explanation for this may be that there was a lot of young ice that breaks up easily, another may be the effect of the Icelandic volcano dropping ash across the ice sheet and increasing melt rates due to the darker ash absorbing more energy and heading the surface of the ice resulting in faster melt rates than normal.

I haven't gone looking much for it (time to press would indicate to me that it possibly is a little early for any published work on it yet) but would be interested if the is a correlation with ash fall this summer and melt rates.
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#1039201 - 26/07/10 11:13 am Re: Sea ice [Re: Gerg]
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 Originally Posted By: Gerg
 Originally Posted By: PolePlant
Interesting but too short to mean much.
If you find one for 1879 to 2009, that might show a trend worth noting.

The graph is the length it is (yes, short) because that's all the data there is (from satellites). There are longer plots assembled from various surface data, but they are necessarily less reliable (and generally only show sea ice area, not volume). E.g.:



Their reliabilty is not in question
The period of them is.
Just becuase there is a short period available it is not excuse for assuming history did not exist before the graphed dates and that the graphed dates are conclusive.

Fact is you will just have to do the same for about the next 50 years and then get back to us with some conclusive "historical" data.
30 years isnt exactly a "history."

 Quote:


To paraphrase Jeremiah, one are so blind as those with their eyes tightly shut.


TO paraphrase me
It is one thing to have an open mind, but not so open your brain falls out.



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#1039300 - 26/07/10 12:28 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: Tennex]
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 Originally Posted By: Tennex
 Originally Posted By: Gerg

A nice feature that isn't obvious is that the bottom axis is positioned at the summer ice volume zero (-13,500 km³). So when the trace hits the bottom of the graph (in September), that's it. This planet no longer has a northern ice cap.


You have got to be kidding right?

There is no chance of there being 0 ice in September none at all. Currently the ice is above that of the 2007 low and the forecast for Artic temps is lower than normal.

I don't know what it is about that graph, I'm not a statistician. But I do know what you are claiming as possible or even likely has not a snowflakes chance in hell of happening.


You don't have to be a statistician to recognise that five standard deviations away from the mean is a huge shift nor to recognise the risk of extrapolating under such circumstances in the absence of other available information (as effectively articulated by xkcd):


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#1039306 - 26/07/10 12:33 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: Gerg]
rabble
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 Originally Posted By: Gerg
 Originally Posted By: PolePlant
Interesting but too short to mean much.
If you find one for 1879 to 2009, that might show a trend worth noting.

The graph is the length it is (yes, short) because that's all the data there is (from satellites). There are longer plots assembled from various surface data, but they are necessarily less reliable (and generally only show sea ice area, not volume). E.g.:




To paraphrase Jeremiah, none are so blind as those with their eyes tightly shut.


 Quote:
Sea ice extent in million square kilometers. Blue shading indicates the pre-satellite era; data then is less reliable. In particular, the near-constant level extent in Autumn up to 1940 reflects lack of data rather than a real lack of variation.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seaice-1870-part-2009.png

I read this to suggest that the data sources vary over the period of the graph which in turn suggest that the apparent trends may not be true.

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#1039320 - 26/07/10 12:44 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: main street]
PG
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 Originally Posted By: main street
In your opinion.


Erm no. Watts and D'Aleo's claim that NOAA/NCDC are engaged in a conspiracy to introduce an artificial warming trend in the climate records by removing temperature station data from higher latitudes shows that they doesn't understand basic maths and physics.

Do you want me to walk you through it again? Is there a link in the logic chain that you missed last time?

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#1039328 - 26/07/10 12:48 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: PG]
Sandy Moderator
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If you want to argue the data integrity and conspiracy, then do it in another thread. (in CV)
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#1039654 - 26/07/10 04:09 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: rabble]
Gerg
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 Originally Posted By: rabble
I read this to suggest that the data sources vary over the period of the graph which in turn suggest that the apparent trends may not be true (in the blue shaded area of the second graph).

Erm, that's what I said ("...necessarily less reliable").

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#1039668 - 26/07/10 04:15 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: Ian D]
Gerg
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 Originally Posted By: Ian D
The northern sea ice was at about its 1980-2000 average in April this year and then dived quite quickly.

One explanation for this may be that there was a lot of young ice that breaks up easily, another may be the effect of the Icelandic volcano dropping ash across the ice sheet and increasing melt rates due to the darker ash absorbing more energy and heading the surface of the ice resulting in faster melt rates than normal.

The ice extent (area) was near the recent average in April; the PIOMAS ice volume estimate certainly was not.

The wind effect is very significant, but an objective of the ice volume estimate is to try to correct for it. (Wind can spread or compact ice; i.e. increases or decrease its extent. But it should barely change ice volume.)

The volcano is another matter. Hopefully the recent volume downtick is due to ash, as you suggest.

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#1040350 - 27/07/10 10:46 am Re: Sea ice [Re: Gerg]
PG
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For those who are genuinely interested, Dirk Notz,head of the research group “Sea ice in the Earth System” at the Max-Planck-Institute for Meteorology in Hamburg has written recently about Arctic Sea Ice.

 Originally Posted By: Dirk Notz

Because of the very low thickness of much of the Arctic sea ice, it wasn’t too surprising that at the end of the winter, sea-ice extent decreased rapidly. This rapid loss lead up to the lowest June sea-ice extent since the beginning of reliable observations. After this rapid loss of the very thin ice that had formed late in winter, the retreat slowed down substantially but the ice extent remained well below the long-term mean. Currently, the ice covers an area that is slightly larger than the extent in late July of the record year 2007. However, this does not really allow for any reliable projections regarding the future evolution of Arctic sea ice in the weeks to come.

The reason for this is mostly that sea ice in the Arctic has become very thin. Hence, in contrast to the much thicker ice of past decades, the ice now reacts very quickly and very sensitively to the weather patterns that are predominant during a certain summer. This currently limits the predictability of sea-ice extent significantly. For example, in 2007 a relatively stable high-pressure system formed above the Beaufort sea, towards the north of North America, leading to rapid melting of sea ice there. If again such stable high pressure system forms in the Arctic throughout the coming weeks, we might well experience a sea-ice minimum that is below the record minimum as observed in 2007. However, if the summer should turn out to be colder than during the previous years, a sea-ice minimum similar to that observed in 2009 would not be too surprising. Hence, at the moment all that remains is to wait – and to check again and again the latest data of Arctic sea-ice extent.


His full post can be found here

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#1056848 - 12/08/10 06:17 pm Re: Sea ice [Re: PG]
Gerg
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For those still interested, the NW Passage (direct northern route) is wide open again at the moment, and has been for weeks. No longer newsworthy it seems.

Nice recent ice image (click for zoom browse):



Note the smoke in the bottom right corner, from the record Russian heatwave fires. Utterly unrelated?



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